Re: continuous backup solution for FreeBSD

On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 11:29:52AM -0400, Mike Meyer wrote:
On Fri, 10 Oct 2008 07:41:11 -0700
Jeremy Chadwick <koitsu@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 03:53:38PM +0300, Evren Yurtesen wrote:
Mike Meyer wrote:
On Fri, 10 Oct 2008 02:34:28 +0300
yurtesen@xxxxxxxxx wrote:

Quoting "Oliver Fromme" <olli@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:

These features are readily available right now on FreeBSD.
You don't have to code anything.
Well with 2 downsides,

Once you actually try and implement these solutions, you'll see that
your "downsides" are largely figments of your imagination.

So if it is my imagination, how can I actually convert UFS to ZFS
easily? Everybody seems to say that this is easy and that is easy.

It's not that easy. I really don't know why people are telling you it
is.

Maybe because it is? Of course, it *does* require a little prior
planning, but anyone with more than a few months experience as a
sysadmin should be able to deal with it without to much hassle.

Converting some filesystems are easier than others; /home (if you
create one) for example is generally easy:

1) ZFS fs is called foo/home, mounted as /mnt
2) fstat, ensure nothing is using /home -- if something is, shut it
down or kill it
3) rsync or cpdup /home files to /mnt
4) umount /home
5) zfs set mountpoint=/home foo/home
6) Restart said processes or daemons

"See! It's like I said! EASY!" You can do this with /var as well.

Yup. Of course, if you've done it that way, you're not thinking ahead,
because:

Now try /usr. Hope you've got /rescue available, because once /usr/lib
and /usr/libexec disappear, you're in trouble. Good luck doing this in
multi-user, too.

Oops. You F'ed up. If you'd done a little planning, you would have
realized that / and /usr would be a bit of extra trouble, and planned
accordingly.

And finally, the root fs. Whoever says "this is easy" is kidding
themselves; it's a pain.

Um, no, it wasn't. Of course, I've been doing this long enough to have
a system set up to make this kind of thing easy. My system disk is on
a mirror, and I do system upgrades by breaking the mirror and
upgrading one disk, making everything work, then putting the mirror
back together. And moving to zfs on root is a lot like a system
upgrade:

1) Break the mirror (mirrors actually, as I mirrored file systems).
2) Repartition the unused drive into /boot, swap & data
3) Build zfs & /boot according to the instructions on ZFSOnRoot
wiki, just copying /boot and / at this point.
4) Boot the zfs disk in single user mode.
5) If 4 fails, boot back to the ufs disk so you're operational while
you contemplate what went wrong, then repeat step 3. Otherwise, go
on to step 6.
6) Create zfs file systems as appropriate (given that zfs file
systems are cheap, and have lots of cool features that ufs
file systems don't have, you probably want to create more than
you had before, doing thing like putting SQL serves on their
own file system with appropriate blocking, etc, but you'll want to
have figured all this out before starting step 1).
7) Copy data from the ufs file systems to their new homes,
not forgetting to take them out of /etc/fstab.
8) Reboot on the zfs disk.
9) Test until you're happy that everything is working properly,
and be prepared to reboot on the ufs disk if something is broken.
10) Reformat the ufs disk to match the zfs one. Gmirror /boot,
add the data partition to the zfs pool so it's mirrored, and
you should have already been using swap.

This is 10 steps to your "easy" 6, but two of the extra steps are
testing you didn't include, and 1 of the steps is a failure recovery
step that shouldn't be necessary. So - one more step than your easy
process.

Of course, the part you seem to be (intentionally?) forgetting: most
people are not using gmirror. There is no 2nd disk. They have one disk
with a series of UFS2 filesystems, and they want to upgrade. That's how
I read Evren's "how do I do this? You say it's easy..." comment, and I
think his viewpoint is very reasonable.

Yeah, this isn't something you do on a whim. On the other hand, it's
not something that any competent sysadmin would consider a pain. For a
good senior admin, it's a lot easier than doing an OS upgrade from
source, which should be the next step up from trivial.

I guess you have a very different definition of "easy". :-)

The above procedure, in no way shape or form, will be classified as
"easy" by the user (or even junior sysadmin) community, I can assure you
of that.

I'll also throw this in the mix: the fact that we are *expecting* users
to know how to do this is unreasonable. It's even *more* rude to expect
that mid-level or senior SAs have to do it "the hard way". Why? I'll
explain:

I'm an SA of 16+ years. I'm quite familiar with PBR/MBR, general disk
partitioning, sectors vs. blocks, slices, filesystems, and whatever
else. You want me to do it by hand, say, with bsdlabel -e? Fine, I
will -- but I will not be happy about it. I have the knowledge, I
know how to do it, so why must the process continue to be a PITA and
waste my time?

This is exactly why I hate things like the OpenBSD installer: do not
make me do it the hard way. We're living in 2008, not 1989. Evolve.

--
| Jeremy Chadwick jdc at parodius.com |
| Parodius Networking http://www.parodius.com/ |
| UNIX Systems Administrator Mountain View, CA, USA |
| Making life hard for others since 1977. PGP: 4BD6C0CB |

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