Re: Database access from COBOL

In article <11qf3as5cpeeg38@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
Dave Froble <davef@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes:
> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> In article <11qdvc66hh3jh92@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
>> Dave Froble <davef@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes:
>>
>>>I've read where a PC is expected to be purchased by the student at some
>>>schools. Don't know how that worked out.
>>
>>
>> Schools have often worked out agreements with companies that allowed them
>> to offer really good deals on computers but the only school I even knew
>> that mandated every student buying a computer was West Point. Hardly
>> your traditional school (they mandate a lot of other things that other
>> schools could never get away with, too). But then, rather than the
>> student paying for his education, the student is actually paid to attend
>> so making them "buy" a computer was somewhat of a misnomer.
>>
>>
>>>I thought we were discussing the students using a workstation that you
>>>provide? I only suggested that the student, as part of the learning
>>>experience, could get the licenses.
>>
>>
>> One, they are not here to learn how to deal with stupid bureaucracy.
>
> Since when is learning to acquire and install something for a computer
> bureaucracy?

Since it has no academic value at all. It's a trade school task at best.
And, since it is a licensing issue and not a technical issue.

> For college students?

Like I said, it's a trade school task, not a college course task.

> They jave to do plenty of other
> things. Research for papers and such. Not much difference to me.

Last sentence sums it up. Don't take this the wrong way, but you
have no idea what the non-student side of college education is.
Neither did HP which is why the Edu program (which we have to learn
to live with because it isn't going to get any better!) is such a
bad fit for the job. Just look at one factor and it becomes obvious
how little they understood the problem. All the Edu PAKs expire on
31 August. When do you think the majority of Colleges start their
semester? Usually, the last week of August sometimes, but not often,
right after Labor Day. Nothing like stopping all machines the first
week of school, a systems admins busiest time of the whole semester!
Why couldn't they have made it in the middle of the summer when it
would have little if any impact on students or professors and when the
sys admin is more likely to have free time to devote to the task of
reloading licenses and making sure everything is still working?

> These are college students we're talking about, right?

Yes, not trade school students. Contrary to popular belief (including
that held by many students when they first arrive) College is not just
a hi-level Vo/Tech School. If you want job training you go to a trade
school. If you want an education you go to a University.

>
>> Two, when they screw it up
>
> Ok, a simple cookbook reciepe, written out and tested one time by you,
> and thereafter the students in a particular class, you pick it, have the
> assignment of acquiring and loading the yearly license.

One. I don't pick their assignments, their professor does.
Two. There is hardly enough time now to cover the stuff they really
need to learn without trying to teach them how to do the monkey work
too.
Three. It's not their job!!

> These are
> college students we're talking about, right?

Yes. And that is why it's not their job. See the word student up there?

>
>> and can't do their assignments what do you
>> think the administration would have to say about it?
>> Three, If the University owns the workstation, who do you think the
>> administration is going to want maintaining them?
>> Should I go on with all the other things wrong with this idea.
>>
>>
>>> I'd expect the computer and media
>>>to be already available. At least, that is where the discussion was
>>>when you said you'd accept a truckload of VAXstation 4000 systems.
>>>
>>>The missing piece is how each student uses the individual license on a
>>>computer used by many. I'm wondering whether each computer can get one
>>>license for the year, and multiple people can use any of the
>>>workstations, using a cluster login. That seems to be what you'd want.
>>
>>
>> And now you are getting into what people who do this for a living have
>> been saying was wrong with the program from the start.
>
> I don't buy it, not after how I understand the latest education license.

How do you understand it? Hint, it bears much less resemnblence to the
Hobbyist program than many here think. What we wanted was a re-worded
Hobbyist agreement. What we got was a lawyers nightmare and a license
no college professor is ever going to sign his name to.

> Heck, it even seems to allow the administration to use VMS without
> paying. At least, that's how I read it. Read quickly, could have
> missed some fine print.

Must have missed a whole bunch. It doesn't technically allow for use
in labs, I can't see how you could have drawn the conclusion that it
allowed administrative use.

>
> How much easier do you want it to be?

Just want it to be legally usable, without a whole bunch of grey area
up top the interpretation of some lawyer. See, we have lawyers too.
And I have to run all this stuff by them before I can use it. And if
they think it is ambiguous or dubious, they just say "No". Now, in
this case, no one beyond me (and I have little if any pull) is going to
fight to keep VMS here, so things have to be administratively easy.

> HP sends out people to hold the
> students hands? Your hand?

No, I usually come here for my hand-holding. :-)

>
> Just how do you provide the various flavors of Unix to the students?

Not sure what that is supposed to mean? Don't run flavors. The majority
of our servers (99%) run FreeBSD. No license. No lawyers. No PAKs.
And then we have the Microsoft products. A bunch (and growing number) of
servers and labs full of user machines. We joined the MS Education Alliance
(or whatever it's actually called, I don't administer it!) and get pretty
much everything but Office covered under blanket licensing. Heck, we can
even give copies to the students along with legitimate licenses they can
take with them when they leave. So, which licensing scheem do you see as
the real loser in this collection? And which OS needs the most help to
just keep it around? Do you see the problem here?

bill

--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bill@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
.

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