Re: New itaniums out at 2.5x perform gain

In article <44C02E7F.418AFACE@xxxxxxxxxxxx>,
JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@xxxxxxxxxxxx> writes:
Bill Gunshannon wrote:
Maybe so, but after years of hearing how the x86 architecture was
unsuitable for running VMS it seems highly unlikely that the addition
of 64 bit extensions has somehow corrected all those shortcomings.


Remember that the 8086 has gone from a 16 bit toy controller with 640k
memory limit and segment registers into a 32 bit CPU with full features
and now 64 bit machine. In the process, it has gained many more
features. So while the 8086 circa 1990 was definitely ill suited to run
VMS, the CPUs made today for that architecture have gained respectability.

We aren't talking about 1990. It was as recently as 2004-2005 that
we were once again reminded that the x86 architecture was deficient
and unsuitable for VMS. They weren't talking about your beloved
8086 (which has been dead for decades!) they were talking about
current x86 architecture. Again, I am not saying it can't be done,
only that if you were waiting for VMS Engineering to "look" at it,
they have and repeatedly said it didn't meet their requirements.


Not saying it can't be done, just that the idea that porting VMS
to IA64 somehow made it easier to port to x86 is quite a stretch.

Posting to IA64 specifically gave VMS the ability to do EFI. That meant
tweaking the file system to allow a FAT partition-in-a-VMS-file with
updates to BACKUP, INIT etc to support this.

EFI, FAT, etc. are not the CPU. It was the CPU they said were deficient,
not systems designed around it which could certainly have been changed.


But the port just made, no matter what the target was, game VMS the
ability to have a common code base supporting multiple architectures at
the same time,

Common code base between two architectures. Alpha and IA64. What
good did that do for the VAX? If these changes don't help an already
existing architecture what possible effect could they have on an as
yet none existant architecture? And, if as they have stated in the
past, the x86 architecture is deficient how can a common code base
cure the hardware problems?


and this allowed engineers to continue to work on VMS
while the port was being done. And a lot fo stuff was cleaned up and as
someone else said, many hardware features were moved to software, thus
making VMS less dependant on hardware.

But the CPU has been declared deficient. All the software in the world
can't fix that.


So the next port will be easier.

Yeah, the Linux guys thought that too. Have you seen VAX Linux lately?



True, but JF has always had this pipe dream that a bunch of engineers
are kept chained up in the basement of ZKO working 24/7 on some
mystery x86 port.

I never said they were chained :-) :-)

Many people from HP (in a better position to know than
JF) have repeatedly stated there are no plans, at this time, to do an
x86 port.

Yes, and that is perfectly normal. Until the second when HP/Intel
announce the end of IA64, expect everyone within HP/Intel to deny any
plans to abandon IA64. Announcing plans to port VMS to the 8086 would be
tantamount to announcing the end of IA64.

"Two people can keep a secret. If one of them is dead."


And while I may be hoping for a Covert port of VMS to the 8086 going on
right now, (the faster, the better), I think it would be realistic to
think that someone within VMS engineering has looked into the
feasability of porting VMS to a 64 bit 8086 based on EFI and reported
back to very high management

If they reported to management the same thing they reported here,
well, you should get the picture...

and kept this very discreet.

"Two people can keep a secret. If one of them is dead."


Note that this had happened prior to the announcement of the prematire
euthanasia of Alpha. I think it was 2 engineers that were tasked to
secretely make a feasability study of porting VMS to IA64. The rest of
the engineers were totally oblivbious to those plans.


When (and if) such a port is to be attempted it will likely get the same
fanfare as all the other ports. It is not the kind of thing that can be
kept hidden away, even if there was some business reason for doing so.

Once it is announced, you are right. But until that time, it is quite
possible to see VMS engineers talk to Intel engineers about what
features they may want in the generation of chips that would come circa
2007.

And exactly why would Intel give a rat's patootie? If it ain't needed
to run Windows, it is not sound business practice. If VMS is to run on
x86 and survive, it has to run on the same x86 exeryone else is running
on. If it is going to require modification of the CPU, it is dead.

Also, someone would also be talking about the types of features
that would allow one to build an 8086 based Wildfire/Galaxy class machine.

Why? Didn't we just hear that Galaxy is dead?



Again, I have to defer to the HP people who are in a better position
to know and they have repeatedly stated here that the resources no
longer exist at HP to revive the Alpha line.

Horse manure. Where there is a will, there is a way.

Only up to a point. These are businesses. All the will in the world
won't change business realities. I used to own a 1979 Triumph Spitfire.
There is a company in England that bought the factory where they used
to be made at the bankruptcy auction. They now manufacture all the
parts themselves. So, why don't they just manufacture and sell the car
again to meet the demand of enthusiasts? A breand new Triumph Spitfire
made from their parts would cost over $100,000. There are people with
the will and this company provides a way. Still doesn't make it practical.

But there is
clearly no will at HP to revive Alpha, no will to even postpone the end
of sales date. And if the will existed, it would take a lot of creative
accounting to cost justify restarting Alpha with a huge amount of
resources to catch up.

So you basicly just supported what I said in the first place, Alpha is
a dead issue.

People need to go back and remember what Carly said. "We have burned
our boats." What does that mean for VMS? It means that HP put all its
eggs in the IA64 basket and did it very deliberately. They did all they
could to make sure there was no way to turn back. If that bodes badly
for people here, there really isn't a lot to be done about it. Unless
you know a real good boat-builder here in the brave new world.

bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bill@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
.

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