Re: OpenVMS Support Issues
- From: "William Webb" <william.w.webb@xxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 23:47:38 -0500
On 20 Nov 2006 16:04:01 -0800, Beach Runner <Bob4Health@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Sue wrote:
> Dear Newsgroup,
>
> The most important thing for folks to do is for folks to send me detail
> here is what happend when I called. What does not help is "this
> stinks" What helps is
>
> call log number xxxxxxx
> On x date I called and spoke to x regarding and spent so long on the
> phone and explain what the problem is and the difference is XX
>
> It is important to note that this is not a VMS specific thing so we are
> not being singled out. But if you send me the information I am willing
> to send it to managment and make sure they have it. What they do with
> it I can not say.
>
> We stand together or we fall apart. Thank you so much for being the
> wonderful people you the customers are the reasons that I love what I
> do.
> big hug,
> Sue
>
>
>
>
>
>
> William Webb wrote:
> > On 11/14/06, David J Dachtera <djesys@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > > Hello, Gerry,
> > >
> > > In so much as I'm inclined to agree with you, even though I am an active
> > > instigator (read: OpenVMS advocate), I think the fact that the issue *IS* so
> > > pervasive here on the 'net speaks more loudly and eloquently than even the most
> > > admired of the ancients.
> > >
> > > The issue is immediate, proximate and of vital import to prolonging the life of
> > > the product.
> > >
> > > My take is that we need to get HP management on-board with the user community -
> > > that is *THE* most important issue for Encompass, this SIG and any and all other
> > > groups (users, ISVs, VARs, OEMs, etc.) to address.
> > >
> > > Without HP management's buy-in, ...
> > >
> > > Well, I'm sure there's no need for me to finish that sentence.
> > >
> > > David J Dachtera
> > >
> > > P.S.:
> > > I think it would be *HIGHLY constructive for *EVERY*one to avoid the use of the
> > > word "whining". It discounts and trivializes an issue that even Sue's job hinges
> > > on.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Czadowski, Gerard A (Gerry) [mailto:Gerry.Czadowski@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > >
> > > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 12:37 PM
> > > To: VMS-SIG@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: Re: OpenVMS Support Issues
> > >
> > > Fellow VMS advocates,
> > >
> > > This topic started as a plea for advocacy by Encompass regarding the
> > > support issue. I believe that the SIG leadership has responded that they
> > > will take up the request and address our concerns with HP management.
> > > Let's please give them a chance.
> > >
> > > With this thread there are signs that the Encompass VMS-SIG list is on
> > > the verge of degenerating to the C.O.V. level of whining and going off
> > > topic -- the perennial lack of VMS marketing issue has reared its head
> > > here. Can we please limit this noise pollution? I'm on the verge of
> > > unsubscribing from this list.
> > >
> > > Thanks for your consideration.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Heim, Thomas W [mailto:heimtw@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 12:04 PM
> > > To: VMS-SIG@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: Re: OpenVMS Support Issues
> > >
> > > Greetings,
> > >
> > > Not sure how many folks reading the "mainstream media" need an MES to
> > > run their wafer fabs, however, the folks that do have a couple of major
> > > players to contend with, PROMIS & Workstream, and they both run on VMS.
> > >
> > > Have Fun,
> > > TW Heim Jr.
> > > twhjr@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > > www.HeimNet.com
> > > OpenVMS.HeimNet.com
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: David J Dachtera [mailto:djesys@xxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 12:57 PM
> > > To: Heim, Thomas W; VMS-SIG@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: RE: OpenVMS Support Issues
> > >
> > > If it's not in the public eye (read: mainstream media) it's "invisible".
> > >
> > > D.J.D.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Heim, Thomas W [mailto:heimtw@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 7:29 AM
> > > To: djesys@xxxxxxxxxxx; VMS-SIG@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: RE: OpenVMS Support Issues
> > >
> > > Greetings,
> > >
> > > "invisible platform, invisible products"
> > >
> > > Have you seen the most recent roadmap?
> > >
> > > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/roadmap/openvms_roadmaps.htm
> > >
> > > I work most of the time in the area of process control and manufacturing
> > > and mostly in the wafer fab space. There is a product that is utilized
> > > "World Wide" to help produce most of the ICs (and I mean ALL ICs not
> > > just processors) that everyone use in their day to day lives. This
> > > product, PROMIS, was an early adopter of VMS on the Itanium platform and
> > > has been selling it for several years.
> > >
> > > Maybe in your vertical market things might be drying up but please do
> > > not try and drag the rest of us, who are flourishing, albeit with some
> > > support issues, down.
> > >
> > > Have Fun,
> > > TW Heim Jr.
> > > twhjr@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > > www.HeimNet.com
> > > OpenVMS.HeimNet.com
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: David J Dachtera [mailto:djesys@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 9:27 PM
> > > To: VMS-SIG@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: Re: OpenVMS Support Issues
> > >
> > > No, HP cannot do it alone.
> > >
> > > The user base cannot do it alone, even throwing tons of money at ISVs
> > > who face the same VMS-related challenges as the user base: invisible
> > > platform, invisible products, etc. ("stealth marketing").
> > >
> > > In my experience, the user base consistently goes out the ISVs and asks
> > > when we will see their products on I64, only to be told the vendor is
> > > not going to I64, they're migrating off of VMS.
> > >
> > > So, the users are doing what they can. It's not as if we can "take our
> > > ball and go home". If there were VMS-based alternatives from other ISVs
> > > we'd have some leverage. Such is not the case, however. As another
> > > respondent cited, even the alternative vendors are, in large measure,
> > > dropping VMS.
> > >
> > > The ball sits squarely in HP's court at this point. Their continued
> > > inaction and/or misaction dooms us all.
> > >
> > > D.J.D.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Heim, Thomas W [mailto:heimtw@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 10:42 AM
> > > To: VMS-SIG@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: Re: OpenVMS Support Issues
> > >
> > > Greetings,
> > >
> > > Granted, and I think everyone agrees that HP needs to work very hard on
> > > damage control but is it not also a bigger responsibility of the VMS
> > > user community to push back on the ISVs indicating why the use of VMS is
> > > a necessity for the efficient operation of their business.
> > >
> > > I mean, when you look at it, it is ultimately the users that wield the
> > > mighty sword of the almighty CASH. In this particular situation HP is
> > > limited to marketing etc where as the customer holds the real power.
> > >
> > > I once worked for a company where they thought it would be a good idea
> > > to push NT on PowerPCs into their customers control processes and phase
> > > out the dieing VMS (and this was some 10 years ago). Needless to say
> > > the customers did not favor the idea and to this day I occasionally get
> > > asked questions about the original VMS application that is still in
> > > control and that company is no longer the world leader in control
> > > systems.
> > >
> > > HP can not do this alone, we the user community, need to get some
> > > backbone and start standing up to the ISVs. It would seem that we can
> > > demonstrate to HP that it would behoove them to give us better support
> > > if we joined together in the effort to increase the visibility of VMS as
> > > an entity and shout from the rooftops that it is alive and viable. This
> > > also is good business.
> > >
> > > Have Fun,
> > > TW Heim Jr.
> > > twhjr@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > > www.HeimNet.com
> > > OpenVMS.HeimNet.com
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: John Zimmerman [mailto:johnz@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 9:16 AM
> > > To: VMS-SIG@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: Re: OpenVMS Support Issues
> > >
> > > It seems to me that the reason "it is incumbent on the folks at HP
> > > OpenVMS"
> > > is the same reason as it is the responsibility for the folks as HP-UX
> > > and other Integrity based groups -- it is or should be part of their
> > > marketing efforts.
> > >
> > > Unless the folks at HP are taking the position that OpenVMS is purely a
> > > legacy operating system and not one which is worth any marketing to
> > > create incentives for current AlphaVMS and new applications to be
> > > developed for Integrity, then it is at least in part their
> > > responsibility to promote the O/S. I believe they do take this
> > > responsibility seriously (even if it might be under-funded) as I just
> > > returned from a DSPP workshop on Itanium development which included all
> > > four supported O/Ses.
> > >
> > >
> > > John Zimmerman
> > > Digitask Consultants, Inc.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Join my Tribe friends
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Heim, Thomas W [mailto:heimtw@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 8:45 AM
> > > To: VMS-SIG@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: Re: OpenVMS Support Issues
> > >
> > > Greetings,
> > >
> > > OK, but... How so is it incumbent on the folks at HP OpenVMS?
> > >
> > > Have Fun,
> > > TW Heim Jr.
> > > twhjr@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > > www.HeimNet.com
> > > OpenVMS.HeimNet.com
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: David J Dachtera [mailto:djesys@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 10:41 PM
> > > To: VMS-SIG@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: Re: OpenVMS Support Issues
> > >
> > > If not "incumbent on the folks at HP OpenVMS", then who? (...incumbent
> > > upon
> > > whom?)
> > >
> > > D.J.D.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Heim, Thomas W [mailto:heimtw@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 3:50 PM
> > > To: VMS-SIG@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: Re: OpenVMS Support Issues
> > >
> > > Greetings,
> > >
> > > I suppose that the *currently* "might" be implied but it would be better
> > > if it where stated that clearly.
> > >
> > > "incumbent on the folks at HP OpenVMS"? How so?
> > >
> > > Have Fun,
> > > TW Heim Jr.
> > > twhjr@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > > www.HeimNet.com
> > > OpenVMS.HeimNet.com
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: bradhamilton [mailto:bradhamilton@xxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 4:43 PM
> > > To: VMS-SIG@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: Re: OpenVMS Support Issues
> > >
> > > Heim, Thomas W wrote:
> > > > Greetings,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Slide 4 and 6 seem a bit at odds?
> > >
> > > I don't see a conflict - Cerner on OpenVMS/Integrity is not *currently*
> > > supported, and they will re-evaluate the situation when they test Oracle
> > >
> > > 10gR2 on OpenVMS/Integrity.
> > >
> > > If this is all just a misunderstanding, it is incumbent on the folks at
> > > HP OpenVMS to rectify the situation, soon.
> > >
> >
> > I think that it would be even more constructive for everyone who
> > writes HP management a letter to set it aside for 24 hours, go back
> > and look it over with fresh eyes, and then mail it if changes are not
> > deemed to be necessary.
> >
> > For the same reasons.
Face it.
Support wil be and continue to be MUCH worse. You can't replace
hundreds of Deccie
VMS support people with 20 or 30 years of tough, real world experience
with people in India with a few months of training, that can't even
communicate.
Moving to higher level contracts won't work. The support will still be
much worse. There will be compression of all issues, as the few people
still there that know VMS will be working on calls that would have been
expertly worked on by the departed Deccies.
And of course, we are no longer dealing with an ethical company. Dec
was a company based on ethics and quality. It was a company one could
be proud of.
HP was once a great company too. Now, the world slimeball comes to
mind. It's sad that so many great people still work there. You can bet
the support staff will not get the support they need. Management that
can replace experts with newbies in India does not value their
employees, their customers or their product.
Now we see on their sites it says "We value your privacy.". Does
anyone believe them?
When someone already has demonstrated a complete lack of ethics, can
you trust them for anything?
VMS is still great. And there still are lots of great VMS people and
applications.
We can direct that our money be moved elsewhere. There are other
organizations that will support VMS. Make sure that HP knows why the
big money is being spent elsewhere. Just like a bad dog, rub it in
their noses. And, please not at the engineer and support level. Get
good examples of the types of support, sales and elevation issues you
run into. Don't blame it on the poor techie in India, it's not his/her
fault.
The best thing would be if HP sells OpenVMS. They know of course, that
allowed to compete in the real marketplace, it would be a gem again.
As Bill Cosby used to say- LookDammit!
Sue asked for something specific and you just spit in her face.
Thanks a lot. Your post really helps things.
Most of the time my issues are hardware-related. I either send the
onsite guy an email or I walk downstairs to his office and we talk
about it. Or I just fix it myself.
I only call support on OS or "software" issues once or twice a month-
it's usually when I find something isn't behaving the way TFM says it
should, or something *seriously* obscure is involved.
I reiterate what I've posted previously.
Write Sue. Politely.
Write Mr. Hurd. Politely.
Write Ann McQuaid. Politely.
Write each and every member of the BOD, politely.
Especially the outside directors- as the Corporate Rule is that the
inside folks tend to listen when the outside directors are saying, "I
got a bunch of letters about this- WTF is going on?"
Don't just rant, you'll be dismissed.
Sue, as usual, is right. Give specifics.
I have received follow-up calls which were clearly different that the
typical "on a scale of 1 to 5, with 1 being highly dissatisfied and 5
being highly satisfied, please rate....---that we've all done for
years-- on about 75 percent of the calls that I've placed that have
been routed offshore.
Remember, from the DECozoic Era through the Middle Compaq Period and
even unto the present day, there is an extensive history of Surveys
Being Important, and those of you who have been On Medallion Support
for years know what I'm talking about.
If you bitch about offshoring per se, you will probably be dismissed as a bigot.
And perhaps rightly so, although I don't know you personally (at least
I *think* I don't.)
I have been completely honest in my discussions on these follow-up
calls- I don't give a rodent's posterior about where the support call
goes- I've dealt with DECfolk all over the world in the past-- the
pertinent issue isn't the location of the support person-- it's the
level of training and resources that they have.
Also, what I care about is that the service level has deteriorated-
Where previously as a Gold Support customer, the call was taken and
then forwarded to my TAM, who then decided upon either personally
owning the call and researching the issue, or referring it to an
appropriate backline--
Now after my call is taken, it is routed to a Tier 1 line where the
level of knowledge is orders of magnitude less than my own,
communication is sometimes okay and sometimes, well, challenging...
But to be honest, they're where my VMS level of knowledge was in 1990
or so- and one of the things that burns me up is that it takes fifteen
or twenty minutes to even get a case number these days.
The people who are fielding these calls have neither the training nor
the expertise nor the access to certain in-house resources (STARS,
anyone? or whatever it's called these days) to field calls from
people, who, on average, have from fifteen to fifty times as much VMS
experience as they do.
It's not fair to us and it's not fair to them, either. It's like
lambs to the slaughter.
I know what's going on when I'm told that I'll get a callback in ten minutes.
This is the support equivalent of reducing the pound bag of coffee to
11 1/2 ounces.
And once the experience and knowledge is lost, it can't be gotten
back. That already happened with a StorageWorks design team.
And a knowledgebase is no substitute for experience.
WWWebb, speaking purely for myself.
.
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