Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?

On 06/10/07 13:18, Main, Kerry wrote:
-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Johnson [mailto:ron.l.johnson@xxxxxxx]
Sent: June 10, 2007 9:25 AM
To: Info-VAX@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?


[snip ...]

Let me rephrase this .. In my experience in collecting inventory
and version information for multi-platform consolidation
projects, there are very few shops (none that I have found to
date) that are running the same version of Linux on their many
different Dev/Test/Prod Linux environments. And these systems can
number in the hundreds when you factor in Dev/QA/Prod distributed
environments in many different sites.
Just like not all sites have their VMS systems running the same
version of VMS, ACMS, Rdb, etc.


See my note below - running different versions is not the issue until
you have to test the Apps and patch them because of some security patch.
With Windows / Linux the sheer volume of these monthly security patches
is what makes running different versions so hard to manage.

Different IT groups have different versions and different
commitments to change and configuration management standards.

Now, having different version of OS is not so much an issue, but
when you have 5-20 security patches for Linux being released each
and every month, with different groups using different versions,
it becomes a nightmare on how to keep each of these different
environments current with the latest App and Kernel security
patches.
You've beaten this dead horse into a maggot-infested pulp.


So you agree then?
>
Good.

It *is* good that you agree that you've bean that dead horse into a maggot-infested pulp.

And that does not even bring in the issues of testing the
important Apps with these security patches before they are
released to Prod.

For small-med shops, its not so much as big an issue if you have
a really well run IT shop with limited numbers of systems being
maintained by the same group.


And
what
do they do when they ask the business for monthly shutdowns
to apply these security patches?
They don't.

Since typically no production shop can shut down important
services without getting approvals from the business, are you
saying they don't apply these monthly security patches?

Linux (and Windows) have a place, but lets get real with
understanding
the real Operations challenges when compared to more
enterprise
class
platforms.
Let us understand that out in the real world companies are
moving to Linux.

Absolutely. But lets not pretend that Linux is going to take
over the world and that serious IT shops will not soon realize
the real costs of adopting a platform that has 5-20 security
patches released each and every month.
According to my company's development group, our app runs
significantly faster on Oracle/Linux than it does on Rdb/Alpha.


Let me guess, this would be the App group that wants to move to Linux,
right?

They did that testing *after* the word came down that we WILL migrate off of VMS.

The alternatives were HP-UX and Linux. If Windows Server was ever a choice, I never heard of it.

mmmm... any developer can make one platform outperform another if they
want to.

Also, many developers typically look at platforms from their perspective
only. Seldom do they look at it from an Operations perspective, i.e.
"how do we test and patch this app every month?"

We cycle the application every Saturday night, to app patches and feature upgrades.

Gives us DBAs time to do work on the databases that would otherwise block or be blocked by the on-line system.

The only reason you need 100s of distinct Linux boxes (unless you
are a co-lo service) is a residual Windows mentality. 4-core x86-64
systems can handle a whole lot of simultaneous tasks, just as VMS can.


You are to far down in the weeds. The HW has nothing (ok, very little)
to do with it. It has to do with:
- how well multiple applications will run together under a single OS,
- culture of App developers in different groups agreeing to support
their application on the same server and same OS as another number of
groups,
- getting every Dev group to agree on standards .. like no developer has
direct access to production systems. That's always a lively discussion.
- culture of ISV's on that platform ie. how willing are they to support
their application running on the same server as a number of different
ISV and locally developed applications.

You mean that each ISV wants to put their app on a dedicated box?

Why do you think most Wintel / Linux servers today are running less than
20% utilization in peak times?

Why do you think VMware is so hot these days for both Windows and Linux
environments?

Its because the culture of Windows and Linux App or ISV environments are
still stuck in the one App, one server culture. VMware allows them to
achieve some HW savings but still keep the one app, one server culture,
so technically and politically, it is an easy solution to implement.

Seems pretty foolish, if you ask me.

The next big step will be to consolidate OS instances as that is where
the biggest savings are (FTE counts are tied to OS instances) and then
that is when the fun will really begin in the Wintel / Linux
environments.

I actually do agree with you on this issue.

--
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA USA

Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?
    ... Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, ... different Dev/Test/Prod Linux environments. ... For small-med shops, its not so much as big an issue if you have ... According to my company's development group, our app runs ...
    (comp.os.vms)
  • RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?
    ... Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, ... different Dev/Test/Prod Linux environments. ... With Windows / Linux the sheer volume of these monthly security patches ... According to my company's development group, our app runs ...
    (comp.os.vms)
  • Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?
    ... Info-VAX@xxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial ... A lot of them are moving towards Linux. ... that there are so many monthly security patches for Linux. ... there are very few shops (none that I have found to ...
    (comp.os.vms)
  • Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet?
    ... I can speak what I see in small and medium sized IT shops. ... patches per month, Linux is fine. ... an app or causing the system to become unstable is just to much risk ... So to extend your logic, which BTW I agree with, to the lack of VMS ...
    (comp.os.vms)
  • Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet?
    ... Linux one day will "be there". ... Linux is often touted in some quarters as the very cool NBT ... The new theme is "App and end users ... It's those very unique features that are inherent to VMS that CEO's, CTO's, ...
    (comp.os.vms)