Re: PLUG: PMAS

In article <44df5$467827df$cef8887a$9446@xxxxxxxxxxxx>,
JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes:
Bill Gunshannon wrote:
Huh? I just told you yesterday that I had an email form some that was
rejected because a major site is RBLed. It wasn't SPAM it was real
email. I have a friend locally who send stuff to me at my Army email
address because he has a Comcast account and some number of their
servers are on various RBL's so he can never be sure his emails will
get thru. These are not SPAM, theae are real messages from major players.
How can you say that only SPAM gets stopped?

One can flip this around.

If you need to deliver an important package, you will choose a
professional courier company that has a good reputation with both you
and the recipient. (internationally, this makes a difference). If you
instead choose a courier that has bad reputation and the package doesn't
get delivered, do you blame the recipient ?


Your ISP is the "courier company". They need to work well with you, but
also have a good reputation within the internet. If you choose to stay
with an ISP whose SMTP servers are often on RBLs, then it is your own
fault when some of your emails don't make it.

You're not listening. We still have lots of places here where there is
no choice. We all don't live in the city. There are places in the US
where there are no ISP's and the nearest is a long distance call way.
And, let's take the case of Comcast. That's like giving your package
to FedEx. Big name. See it on TV all the time. You kind of assume
they actually work. But guess what, they don't. And most users never
know it. The first hint I had that my friend was having trouble was
when he sent me an email from his government account to my government
account asking why I never resoponded to any of his messages. I take
that to mean either he never got the Reject messages (my server sends
them) or he couldn't decipher them and jus deleted them anyway.


Conversly, if you insist on staying with MSN/HOTMAIL which now drops
emails instead of filing them in the user's spam folder, then it is your
responsability when you don't receive emails. HOTMAIL is not following
accepted procedure.

Isn't HOTMAIL an MS operation? MS doesn't follow procedures, it establishes
them. Where have you been?

It should either reject message during SMTP
dialogue, issue a bounce message or file the message in the user's
mailbox (either in a spam folder or in the real inbox).

So you say. But you don;t own or run their servers and like it or not
they are free to do whatever they want. Caveat Emptor.

MSN/HOTMAIL now
offer a paid service to have smaller ISP registered for "assured
delivery". So dropping emails from small shops is part of their strategy
to get senders to pay to ensure their emails get to hotmail/msn recipients.

And this suprises you? Now I am sure this an MS operation.

RBL services are now standard. And with an RBL, you do not violate the
spirit of RFC821 because you block the message before accepting
responsability and the sending SMTP server then has responsability to
advise user that message was refused.

With a message that may not get through or even if it does likely won't
be understood. So, might as well not send them. I have also told people
here I get piles of bogus Reject messages every day. Most carry another
interesting payload. And I certainly wouldn't visit some random webpage
because a Reject mesage who's validity I can not verify told me to.


It is up to the sender to then inquire why his ISP cannot deliver
emails.

If he even knows.

And if the sender insists on staying with an ISP that is
constantly on RBLs because they do not manage their network properly,
then that is his responsability, not that of the recipient SMTP servers
who do their job and block mail coming for disreputable IPs.

Unless he only has one ISP to choose from or much more likely doesn't
have a clue what you just said. The average user doesn't have a clue
what RBL means. That's geek speak.

It's nice to sit here and blame the user or one of the thousands of
Mom&Pop ISP's out there that haven't got a clue what their doing and
run on a shoestring so thin their idea of an IT Pro is that 14 year
old Linux weenie down the street. But none of this is fixing the
problem. The methods being used today have proven ineffective. The
Pro SPAMers can adapt faster than you you can come up with new ideas.
And the Mom&Pop ISP's don't know how to implement any of it anyway.
At some point people will have to admit that the system is broken and
very likely not repairable. Then maybe we can start looking at a new
way of doing it that eliminates the weaknesses that make the old system
so vulnerable.

bill


--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bill@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
.

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