Re: July the 4th

In article <1186363007.921609.27110@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, AEF <spamsink2001@xxxxxxxxx> writes:
On Aug 5, 7:55 pm, davi...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
In article <1186334184.382451.138...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, AEF <spamsink2...@xxxxxxxxx> writes:

On Aug 2, 7:44 am, davi...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
In article <1186010329.495752.168...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, AEF <spamsink2...@xxxxxxxxx> writes:

On Aug 1, 6:15 pm, Dirk Munk <m...@xxxxxxx> wrote:
Ron Johnson wrote:
On 07/30/07 02:15, Dirk Munk wrote:
JF Mezei wrote:
AEF wrote:
[...]

By the way, did you know that not even all Jews are treated equal in
Israel? There are 'classes' of Jews, it all depends where your family
came from. Did they come from some poor underdeveloped country, and they
hardly had any education? Then you are a second class Jew I'm afraid.

Never heard of this. Can you elaborate? Just exactly how are they
treated differently?

see for instance

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/51a/093.html

(This is mostly about the Palestinians but you can ignore that if you wish and
look towards the end about the stratification of Jewish society. Ethiopian and
Yemeni Jews being at the bottom of Jewish society).

This is one person's view. I find the complaint of disproportionate
force ridiculous. Police use disproportinate force all the time. And
disproportionate use of force is the norm in the world in all sorts of
situations. Only when it is exercised by Israel does anyone complain.
And if the P's are so poorly armed compared to the I's, why are they
still attacking? Foolish except for generating PR. It would be like a
cornered suspect throwing rocks at the police and some bystanders. The
police would shoot to kill (or at least to incapacitate) and everyone
would be grateful for it.

I have no idea who Phyliss Bennis is and did not bother to read most of the
article. As I said "This is mostly about the Palestinians but you can ignore
that if you wish and look towards the end about the stratification of Jewish
society."

So what do you do - you start arguing about the bit I told you to ignore.

To show that the author is not credible as a neutral source. Besides,
you said I "could" ignore it. Also, you referenced it, other people
may well read the whole thing, so I think I have the right to comment
on the whole thing.

The document demonstrates its severe one-sideness with this comment:

"However, by means of the 1947-48 war, Israel took over even greater
expanses of land and forcibly expelled about 750,000 Palestinians.
This travesty was the basis for the official founding of the Israeli
state in 1948."

Hello? Israel didn't start this war. And it is by no means a settled
fact of history about these expulsions. Could it be that some P's were
expelled because they were fighting against the Israelis? And why were
so many P's (or Arabs) NOT expelled?

This makes me doubt everything else in the article. It is only one
person's view and it is clearly not a neutral view.

I find this interesting quote from Wikipedia. Yeah, it's Wikipedia,
but it's at least as good at the interview you referecned:

Israel, the US and the Soviets called the Arab states' entry into
Palestine illegal aggression, UN secretary general Trygve Lie
characterized it as "the first armed aggression which the world had
seen since the end of the [Second World] War." China broadly backed
the Arab claims. Both sides increased their manpower over the
following months, but the Israeli advantage grew steadily as a result
of the progressive mobilization of Israeli society and the influx of
an average of 10,300 immigrants each month.

Of course the Arab countries going to war to destroy the newly created Israel
was an agression - at least as defined by the UN charter (they were invading a
sovereign nation).
As far as the Arabs were concerned the very act of creating Israel was an
agression that was perpetrated by the UN.

Well, if the Wikipedia article is right, even the Soviets (not
normally Jew-friendly, BTW) considered the Arab invasion into the
fledgling Israel to be _illegal_ aggression.

Can you not read - I agreed that it was an agression as defined by the UN
charter. If you want I'll say it's an illegal agression as defined by the UN
charter. Any invasion of a sovereign nation is an illegal agression as defined
by the UN charter unless sanctioned by the UN.

That doesn't alter the Arabs view that the UN action in creating Israel was
also an agression.

As I said before how would you react if an outside power such as the UN
suddenly gave your home to foreign refugees ?

First of all, this is a gross oversimplification of what happened. I
don't know all of what happened, but I know there is a lot more to it
than you mention in your question.


The only simplification is that I did not mention - as I have in another post -
the mass migration of Jewish refugees which started, in relatively few
numbers and peacefully , in the 1880s under the ottoman empire. This then
continued but turned into a flood under the British Mandate - particularly in
the 30s and illegally during the second world war - which severely upset the
local arab population.

So for your benefit I will rephrase the question :-

How would you react if your government allowed in tons of refugees to your home
state and then when their numbers had grown sufficiently high the UN decided
that your home state should now be split in two with half being given as a
homeland for these refugees and any of their distant relatives who wished to
come in the future ?


Regardless, I seriously doubt I'd call for an invasion if I were in
that position.

I already told you what I would expect with my picture of what Britain and
the republic of ireland would have done if the UN had planted a refugee
nation in Northern Ireland. Damn right I would have expected them to invade.
I cannot seriously imagine that the US population would allow some
international body or collection of nations to just setup a nation state on
US mainland territory.


And why didn't the Arabs invade Palestine to capture it back from
Britain?

Britain was an imperial power still pretty much at the height of it's power
after world war I. The other arab nations were themselves newly created by the
British and French by their carving up of the ottoman empire. The new rulers of
these arab states were handpicked by the British and French.
In some cases the populations in these countries were beginning to form
nationalist movements aiming to kick the british and french out of their
countries and topple handpicked rulers but achieving those aims was far in the
future - and by then Britain's imperial power would be fading fast.




David Webb
Security team leader
CCSS
Middlesex University


.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Points from Bernard Lewis final lecture. Worth reading.
    ... lecture by Bernard Lewis, a world-renowned expert on Islamic history ... against Israel ever since its foundation and even before that. ... "A couple of other developments that should be noted: Some Arab ... countries in the making, while patriotism is when the citizenry truly ...
    (soc.culture.israel)
  • Points from Bernard Lewis final lecture. Worth reading.
    ... World-Renowned Bernard Lewis Delivers Concluding Lecture ... against Israel ever since its foundation and even before that. ... "A couple of other developments that should be noted: Some Arab ... countries in the making, while patriotism is when the citizenry truly ...
    (soc.culture.israel)
  • Re: If only they had a partner for peace
    ... Ever hear of any Jewish political parties in an Arab country? ... You claimed Israel is a "true democracy." ... and the surrounding Arab countries were ...
    (rec.gambling.poker)
  • Re: OT: Egypt FM "Jews are Pigs"
    ... root of the problem is the same as with Israel, ... long worked to undermine democracy in the Arab countries. ... the West was largely responsible for the lack of democracy in the Arab ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: Venezuela condena ataques de Israel a los pueblos dePalestina ...
    ... Y estos son judíos OPUESTOS al estado de Israel. ... "The very point of Labor's Zionist program is to have as much land as ... which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 ... Palestinian Arab citizens. ...
    (soc.culture.venezuela)