Re: NASA gets SGI 2048-core Itanium 2 supercomputer

In article <4754576E.4000700@xxxxxxxxxxx>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@xxxxxxxxxxx> writes:
david20@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
In article <475427FC.7090705@xxxxxxxxxxx>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@xxxxxxxxxxx> writes:

david20@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:

In article <5rige5F14vl2oU1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, billg999@xxxxxxxxxxx (Bill Gunshannon) writes:


In article <fiu42g$b5c$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
david20@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx writes:


In article <5redcaF14d6hgU1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, billg999@xxxxxxxxxxx (Bill Gunshannon) writes:


In article <fipbbs$sa9$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
david20@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx writes:


In article <5ragurF139h2rU1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, billg999@xxxxxxxxxxx (Bill Gunshannon) writes:


In article <2e0f3$474fc65d$cef8887a$6850@xxxxxxxxxxxx>,
JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes:


Dr. Dweeb wrote:


Can someone give me one, clear, unequivocal reason why manned space flight
out of earth's orbit in any way justifies its cost relative to unmanned
missions (which are massively less expensive) to other solar system bodies?


When Christopher Columbus set out, he was hoping to find a way to india
by going west. He didn't find what he was looking for. But he found
something totally unexpected.

Hardly. Christopher Columbus was much closer to NASA than most people
give him credit for. He knew there was no direct westerly path to India.

In that case he either had inside information that America existed (there have
I believe been claims that he had seen a Map which might have been produced by
previous Viking explorers) or he was suicidal. If he had no knowledge of
America's existence and knew there was noway for him to reach India then what
was he trying to do ? The money he "conned" out of the Spanish wouldn't do
him much good in Davey Jone's Locker.



He conned Spain into financing a junket that could not possibly accomplish
what he told them it would. Either that, or he was truly the biggest
idiot the world has ever seen.

The map was located in Turkey and supposedly there are records of his
having had access to it. In any event, you basicly agreed with me
completely. He was either an idiot or a con-man. Take your pick.

Ah, so by con-man you were actually meaning that he had inside knowledge of the
existance of America (from the Map) and conned the spanish monarchs by planning
to reach that target whilst telling them he was going to India.
How does that tie in with your "closer to NASA" ?
As far as I am aware NASA has always striven to reach it's stated astronomical
targets ie Earth Orbit, Moon , building of space station,
robotic exploration of outer planets etc
Unless of course you believe that the moon landings were faked ?

No, not faked, just a tremendous waste of time and money.


The only waste was the lack of follow-through during the last 30 years.

What benefit would follow from putting more men on the moon? We know
how to do it and get them home again. But then what? The only value in
"moon rocks" is their scarcity! We know of nothing on the moon that
would justify the enormous expense of sending men there and getting them
back home again. The expense of keeping men on the moon is unthinkable!
Everything they needed would have to be sent from Earth at enormous
expense. What could a few men and/or women do on the moon that would
justify the expense?


Sorry the regolith is full of metals and importantly has an oxygen content of
about 40% see

http://www.moonminer.com/Lunar_regolith.html

Given the low gravity and hence low escape velocity of the moon this oxygen
could form a valuable resource to enable spacecraft refueling in cis-lunar
orbit cutting down on launch weight from Earth.

See

http://www.asi.org/adb/04/03/10/04/oxygen-extraction.html


Note. This is just strip mining of the regolith - no need for deep mines.

(I'm ignoring Helium-3 for the moment since although it has great future
potential - the reaction is cleaner and more efficient though requiring higher
temperatures than deuterium-tritium reactions - we need to have the fusion
technology in place before it would be economically valuable.)


The moon would also make a great platform for astronomical observatories.
Space-borne interferometry missions such as the free flying terrestrial planet
finder are planned but moon-based interferometry systems planted on solid
ground would be able to provide much longer baselines rivalling those of earth
based systems but without the problems associated with earth based astronomy.



I've read all the science fiction. Heinlein's "The Moon is a Harsh
Mistress" makes a great read but I always thought that the enconomics of
the moon as prison were a little questionable. If the public had the
choice of sending incorrigible criminals to the moon for life or just
putting them in front of a firing squad, which would they choose? Given
that the firing squad costs $100 and a one way ticket to the moon
$1,000,000; which, as a voter, would you choose? Has anybody ever
analyzed the costs of building and operating a prison on the moon?




As you say that is Science Fiction (and fairly old Science Fiction at that I
believe it was published in 1966). Moon based Industry is more likely than
a prison colony. Though there are arguments for the Industry being space-based
and just being supplied with raw materials mined from the moon and transported
into orbit using a mass-driver.

The expense of getting anything at all out of our immense gravity well
is great enough that there would have to be a huge payoff.

That's the whole point. Currently we have to provide everything from Earth
against that huge gravity well. Mining on the moon means that materials can be
sent into Earth orbit from the moon cheaply. Yes you first need to get mining
equipment up there so there is an initial startup cost but after that you are
living of the land. I suppose whether it is worth it depends upon whether you
think humanity should just hunker down on Earth and ignore the rest of the
Universe or whether we should be building things in Earth orbit and beyond.

Strip mining
requires heavy machinery. The machinery requires fuel and oxygen. I
don't see it happening any time soon. The crew to operate the machinery
will require food, oxygen, shelter, etc. Then too, there is the problem
of soft landing anything we might mine on the moon. There's no point in
burning it up as a meteorite or dropping it on somebody's head or house.


Apart from Helium-3 (which I indicated I didn't think was really worth it yet)
who said anything about using these mined resources on Earth ? I'm talking
about using it in Earth orbit.

We are sitting on the only real estate in the solar system that is
likely to be of any great use any time in the next hundred years!


Only if it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy by our not trying to do anything.


David Webb
Security team leader
CCSS
Middlesex University

.

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