Re: VMS - now with a hammer (was Re: Island Computers is moving)

Mark Daniel wrote:
Richard Maher wrote:

Hi Mark,


Ok, you've mentioned Silverlight. Not trying to teach you how to suck
eggs (not knowing myself) but you must have considered how a .NET
Framework front-end might provide an infrastructure for all that Tier3
offers? Arguably it has a greater installed and developer base than
Java. There are also open-source compatibility environments available
and in-development. And it answers that ubiquitous question, "Is is
supported on Win32?" Just my AU$0.05 FWIW.



Now I'm dissappointed :-( If someone with your abilities, attention to
detail, and seeming fathomless desire to read anything and everything,
cannot understand one of the basic tenets of the Tier3 architecture then the
documentation must be in a sorry shape indeeed. Please (re)read chapter 2 in
the Tier3 Client/Server Development manual
http://manson.vistech.net/t3$examples/tier3_031.pdf and get back to me. I
think the key words are *No client-specific software required!*.


I think I understand that Tier3 is back-end only :-) All you need is a

Hmmm. I better clarify this as well. AIUI, it's back-end glue. You need to roll-your-own back-end.

network connection (TCP/IP, IPsec-ed preferably (not TLS), or DECnet) and some front-end, roll-your-own glue. My suggestion, obviously clumsily put, was that providing a .NET Framework equivalent to the Java applet(s?) you have put up, would have reached a *larger* audience. "Is it supported on Win32? Of course! Look ..."

If you want to use .NET then go crazy! Anyone, and everyone, can talk to
Tier3 application servers using standard TCP/IP Sockets (or DECnet
interface) with whatever tools they require or desire. ActiveX controls? I
love it! - Java Sockets? Can't get enough of it! C+ BSD Sockets? Mad for it!
VMS System Services? I'm over the moon!

I ( with heaps of help from the likes of the very talented Bojan Nemec's and
Arne's of the world) provided a Java Applet example because I thought it
might be useful for VMS sites to be able to automatically distribute their
client GUI application over the web at the click of a button. No more
cumbersome client-software rollouts and upgrades. (As well as the usual
Tier3 benefits of complete integration with the VMS security model,
transparent multi-threading, and TP load-balancing) Silly me, hey?

Now, the Flex SDK has rudimentary Socket support but as I don't see Adobe
ever dropping the requirement for a JRE anytime real soon, I see no problem
with using the Java code (or something like it) that you'll also find in the
t2$examples directory.

I *really, really, really* want to provide an Asynchronous Socket client
example using JSObject (maybe tick over a stock-price, or perhaps an OPCOM
message) and I *really, really, really* want to incorporate the Flex-Ajax
Bridge to deliver Flex Charting examples, but with absolutely bugger-all
help from HP/VMS (as usual) it's having to go on the back-burner as I am
fortunate enough to be involved with a Linux/Java/SOAP development that with
be talking to one of the main travel CRSs. (And of course an IA64 version
if HP would sell me an Itanium box at the same price they are forcing them
on others)

Anyway, gotta go. . .

Cheers Richard Maher

PS. WRT Silverlight, please search this group for why I (FWIW) think it is
definitely *not* the way to go. Microsoft for one (and I'm sure there's
more) know that HTTP is a poorly performing, insecure, piece of *** when it
comes to an application middleware protocol, and now with Silverlight's "I
can't believe it's not butter (or AJAX in this case)" perhaps they'll be
able to deliver a high-performance propritary solution under the covers
after the initial handshake.

On Jan 12, 12:07 pm, Mark Daniel <mark.dan...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Richard Maher wrote:

Hi Mark,


Hmmm. Perhaps


Daughter-of-Tier3 - DoT3.


or


Tier3 Services Integration Toolkit - T3SIT


:-)


Something to keep the bloatware where it belongs - on *x - and leave VMS
an unsullied, peer-to-peer, binary interaction?


Keep suggesting this sort of heterodox technology and you'll end up
finding yourself excommunicated from the Exclusive 3GL Brethren.


My God, I'm transparent! How long has this been going on?


Look, at the end of the day, I can't believe I'm having to defend the
concept of "logging-on" to some people! Or the fact that having a 1:M
relationship between Application Server Connections and Messages


Exchanged

is also a good thing. (Here's an idea for an additional stats field for
WASD; "HTTP 1.1 requests per connection".


HTTPd ...uma.es:80
Server Statistics (HTTPe:80)
Saturday, 12-JAN-2008 03:59:50
8< snip 8<
Request Processing
------------------
8< snip 8<
Connection Request HTTP
---------- ------- ----
Total: 1956677 Total: 7625722 1.1: 5953591 (84%)
Current: 7 Current: 1 1.0: 1133162 (16%)
Peak: 735 Peak: 586 0.9: 91 (0%)
8< snip 8<
Persistent /Total: 5219968
/Max: 509
Pipeline /Total: 12971
/Max: 60
8< snip 8<

(Internet bloody Explorer gives me
3 connections to receive a single Applet :-( bizarre))
The browser *is* the GUI (maybe even the OS?) but that does not mandate


a

http web-server being the application middleware back-bone! Expedient,
ubiquitous, "easy" - yes, but "right" no way! (Leaving to one side


security

and high-performance for the moment)


Just watch what Microsoft is doing with SilverLight and control of


server

interaction, and also Adobe, Oracle, IBM and BEA. Web-Servers are great


at

serving up files and pimping for applications, but once the


introductions

have been made, you should put the Sow's ear down and start sowing with
silk!


Ok, you've mentioned Silverlight. Not trying to teach you how to suck
eggs (not knowing myself) but you must have considered how a .NET
Framework front-end might provide an infrastructure for all that Tier3
offers? Arguably it has a greater installed and developer base than
Java. There are also open-source compatibility environments available
and in-development. And it answers that ubiquitous question, "Is is
supported on Win32?" Just my AU$0.05 FWIW.


Whether you choose to call it a Portal, a Consolidator, or a Broker,


your

application server *is* something that you'll log-on and maintain a
connection to. I just see no reason why that Application Server isn't


VMS.

VMS has the security, reliability, disaster tolerence, and clustering
superiority that could give it the-edge in the server arena; it's just a
shame it's not happening (and hasn't been for over 10 years :-() Call me
crazy, but if Tier3 can give you Context-Rich, Connection-Oriented,
client-interaction coupled with Transparent Load-Balancing and Network
Communication, and Integrated VMS Authentication on the server-side,


then I

also think that's a good thing! All any Application Server that you


write

(in any 3GL) will consist of is 6 User Action Routines built into a
Shareable Image - That's it! No aditional privileges reqd, your


server(s)

run a a VMS detached process under the username that you select, a


Persona

matching the client's credentials is made available to your 3GL routines


in

order to aid in access control, and full VMS Debugger faciliities are at
your disposal. Add to that the fact that each Application can be tuned


and

configured independantly by your System Manager, and it's all gravy!!!


Anyway, you and the cast of thousands at the IMM team are free to persue


VMS

Middle Management's "Year Zero" program and send all the corrupt legacy
3GL/DCL/SystemService/Macro coders out of the decadent cities and into


the

pure, unsullied, Java-OO-and-http paddy-fields. Sooner or later those
wankers have to realize that it's the revenue that the cities generate
that's keeping them, and VMS, afloat? Sadly, by that stage, I suspect


we'll

all be lying in those paddy fields with plastic bags over our heads :-(


(suggested in the Spirit of good humour - and making a *little* fun of
your sometime glossolalia Richard :-)


I've found it best to err on the side of caution when it comes to


slagging

people off with your reckless throw away lines :-) A bit of empathy


never

hurt anyone you know. I'm mean next you'll be saying something like
"Sachin's (pick a close relative)'s an Untouchable"; and where will it


all

end then eh?


Cheers Richard Maher


PS. I would have sworn that "glossolalia" was a word you just made up;


and

yet how appropriate, humorous, and still cutting on so many levels.


High praise indeed! Received with due humility. ;-)


I suggest you drink more and read less :-)


Sage advice at the end of my annual leave! Prosit!!




"Mark Daniel" <mark.dan...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:13ob3863rj19iaf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


8< snip 8<

Credulity kills.
[Carl Sagan; The Demon-Haunted World]


--
The suppression of uncomfortable ideas may be common in religion or in
politics, but it is not the path to knowledge, and there's no place for
it in the endeavor of science. We do not know beforehand where
fundamental insights will arise from about our mysterious and lovely
solar system. The history of our study of our solar system shows us
clearly that accepted and conventional ideas are often wrong, and that
fundamental insights can arise from the most unexpected sources.
[Carl Sagan; quotation from the Cosmos television series]


--
I believe that an orderly universe, one indifferent to human preoccupations, in which everything has an explanation even if we still have a long way to go before we find it, is a more beautiful, more wonderful place than a universe tricked out with capricious ad hoc magic.
[Richard Dawkins; Unweaving The Rainbow]

--
To fill a world with ... religions of the Abrahamic kind, is like littering the streets with loaded guns. Do not be surprised if they are used.
[Richard Dawkins; "Religion's Misguided Missiles"]

.