Re: OT: Universal healthcare in England failing - boy dies !

On Mar 11, 4:32 am, Mark Daniel <mark.dan...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
ultra...@xxxxxxxxx wrote:
On Mar 7, 11:17 am, davi...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:

In article <c22e4845-a4d4-499e-ab09-d5e936ded...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, ultra...@xxxxxxxxx writes:

On Mar 7, 9:05=A0am, davi...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:

In article <bf2fec9c-1136-4473-8f28-4b4861133...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx=

om>, ultra...@xxxxxxxxx writes:

On Mar 6, 8:27=3DA0pm, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spam...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Bob,

do you realise that people like you who use religious values/reasons to=

oppose certain topics are exactly the same as muslim extremists who use=

religious excuses to rebel against stuff they don't like (such as the U=

SA)=3D

?

It is interesting that the country that should understand religious
extremists the most (because of 9-11) should itself have so many
extremists and not only no realise it, but give those extremists
political voices and power.

I AM TIRED OF YOU EQUATING CHRISTIANS TO
MUSLIM EXTREMISTS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Christians do not tie bombs to themselves and kill
others because they will not believe ...

I've never understood why a terrorist who sacrifices themselves when attac=

king

their enemies should be considered any different than a terrorist who
just plants a bomb and walks away and therefore lives to plant further bom=

bs.

The IRA whose members were supposedly Christians didn't use suicide bombin=

g

but they did force others to drive cars filled with explosives at British
Army checkpoints by threatening their families
seehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_bomb
( So no they didn't tie bombs to themselves to kill others - they "tied" b=

ombs

to other innocent civilians and blew them up to kill others.
I'd regard that tactic as being far more dispicable that suicide bombing)

It is also probably worth noting that some of the Japanese Kamikazi pilots=

were Christian see

http://www.martinrothonline.com/Christians&War/Christian_suicide_bomb....

David Webb
Security team leader
CCSS
Middlesex University

the apostles and all other TRUE Christians were put
to death ... the last time I checked, it was Christians
who were laying dead in the catacombs in Rome, not
romans ...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

wrong ... they were NOT Christians ...

true Christians know that only God has the right to
kill, and that means suicide too, and if they do it is
murder ... and you can add abortion to that too ...

So throughout history most christians haven't really been christian ?
Catholic church - Inquisition killing heretics, witches etc
Christian countries fighting wars in the name of religion.
Most religious denominations fighting and indeed glorying in wars.

The IRA members definitely considered themselves to be Catholic just as the
Loyalists considered themselves to be protestants.

just because someone says there are a Christian
does not mean they are ...

The same could be said about many who profess to be muslims.

David Webb
Security team leader
CCSS
Middlesex University- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

those who kill in the name of God are NOT Christians ...
God has very rarely given that authority to anyone outside
of Himself, mainly the jews in certain circumstances ...
most of the time, he sends the angel of death to handle
that ...

Bob is (substantially) correct - again, seehttp://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.vms/msg/7ff788c55f00b2c6

YHWH (the mountain-dwelling, desert deity of the Israelites, the god of
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob [Exodus 3:15http://bible.cc/exodus/3-15.htm]
and hence of all the major Abrahamic religions - Judaism, Christianity
[Acts 3:13http://bible.cc/acts/3-13.htm] and Islam) generally executes
his will vicariously and often (though by no means exclusively) using
transcendent beings.

Of course, while ultimate responsibility resides with the superior
deity, there is often some confusion as to who is the actual agent in
any particular instance.  Sometimes Malach Adonai (or Malach Elohim),
sometimes YHYW, sometimes the Elohim themselves.  Sometimes all
together, representing the divine, as in the following passage:

"The angel of the LORD appeared to him in a blazing fire from the midst
of a bush... When the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called
to him from the midst of the bush and said, "Moses, Moses!" ... I am the
God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of
Jacob."

[Exodus 3:2-6http://bible.cc/exodus/3-2.htm]

Of course there is no doubt that YHWH is the progenitor.

"About midnight I am going out into the midst of Egypt, and all the
firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the firstborn of the
Pharaoh who sits on his throne, even to the firstborn of the slave girl
who is behind the millstones; all the firstborn of the cattle as well."

[Exodus 11:4http://bible.cc/exodus/11-4.htm]

Some of the children would have been below the age of consent (knowledge
of good and evil), twelve years by tradition (also by recent concessionhttp://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.vms/msg/e56644658146b4e7), and in
modern milspeak would have been 'collateral damage'.

(185,000) "Then the angel of the LORD went forth, and smote in the camp
of the Assyrians a hundred and fourscore and five thousand: and when
they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses."

[Isaiah 37:36http://bible.cc/isaiah/37-36.htm]

Transcendent beings do not always kill directly.  Sometimes they just
deliver an effective biological agent (WMD?):

(70,000) "So the LORD sent a pestilence upon Israel from the morning
until the appointed time, and seventy thousand men of the people from
Dan to Beersheba died."

Saddam (or Chemical Ali, et al) - are these precedent?

[2 Samuel 24:15http://bible.cc/2_samuel/24-15.htm]

YHWH is occasionally dismayed by the carnage and changes his mind:

"When the angel stretched out his hand toward Jerusalem to destroy it,
the LORD relented from the calamity and said to the angel who destroyed
the people, "It is enough! Now relax your hand!""

[2 Samuel 24:16http://bible.cc/2_samuel/24-16.htm]

YHWH is not cogniscent (or at least not appreciative) of good intentions.

"...Uzzah reached out toward the ark of God and took hold of it, for the
oxen nearly upset it. And the anger of the LORD burned against Uzzah,
and God struck him down there for his irreverence; and he died there"

[2 Samuel 6:6-7http://bible.cc/2_samuel/6-6.htm]

But back to the primary thesis.

"For My angel will go before you and bring you in to the land of the
Amorites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Canaanites, the Hivites and
the Jebusites; and I will completely destroy them."

[Exodus 23:23http://bible.cc/exodus/23-23.htm]

However, far more commonly the human rather than the transcendent have
been the instruments of YHWH's designs.  Indeed:

"Cursed be the one who does the LORD's work negligently, And cursed be
the one who restrains his sword from blood."

[Jeremiah 48:10http://bible.cc/jeremiah/48-10.htm]

Ancient Judaic lore is replete with precedent.

"and when the LORD your God delivers them before you and you defeat
them, then you shall utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant
with them, nor show mercy unto them"

[Deuteronomy 7:2http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/7-2.htm]

"They utterly destroyed everything in the city, both man and woman,
young and old, and ox and sheep and donkey, with the edge of the sword."

[Joshua 6:21http://bible.cc/joshua/6-21.htm]

"Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every
woman who has known man intimately."

[Numbers 31:17http://bible.cc/numbers/31-17.htm]

"But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves.."

[Numbers 31:18http://bible.cc/numbers/31-18.htm]

(Not quite in the league of what's currently being offered but ...)

"A maiden, two maidens for every warrior;"

[Judges 5:30http://bible.cc/judges/5-30.htm]

"And they found among the inhabitants of Jabesh-gilead 400 young virgins
who had not known a man by lying with him; and they brought them to the
camp at Shiloh, which is in the land of Canaan."

[Judges 21:12http://bible.cc/judges/21-12.htm]

And not only are foreigners (non-Israelites, Arabs) visited by his
messengers.  Those within the camp were subject to the agents of YHWH
too.  Forced conversion:

"...whoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to
death, whether small or great, man or woman."

[2 Chronicles 15:13-http://bible.cc/2_chronicles/15-13.htm]

"But to the others He said in my hearing, "Go through the city after him
and strike; do not let your eye have pity and do not spare.  Utterly
slay old men, young men, maidens, little children, and women, ... So
they started with the elders who were before the temple. And He said to
them, "Defile the temple and fill the courts with the slain. Go out!"
Thus they went out and struck down the people in the city."

Post-Traumatic Stress Syndrome (PTSS) must have been unknown amongst the
(better debriefed or more inclined) combatants in these early Israelite
armed forces.

[Ezekiel 9:5-7http://bible.cc/ezekiel/9-5.htm]

"Then the LORD spoke to Moses saying ... 'Moreover, the one who
blasphemes the name of the LORD shall surely be put to death; all the
congregation shall certainly stone him. The alien as well as the native,
when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death.'"

[Leviticus 24:13-16http://bible.cc/leviticus/24-11.htm]

"if there is anyone who curses his father or his mother, he shall surely
be put to death"

[Exodus 21:15http://bible.cc/exodus/21-15.htm]

(Whence John Edward? ...)

"Now a man or a woman who is a medium or a spiritist shall surely be put
to death."

[Leviticus 20:27http://bible.cc/leviticus/20-27.htm]

(Whence - well, name just about any politician or tele-evangelist ...)

"If there is a man who commits adultery with another man's wife, one who
commits adultery with his friend's wife, the adulterer and the
adulteress shall surely be put to death."

[Leviticus 20:10http://bible.cc/leviticus/20-10.htm]

Of course it's worse if Dad happens to be a clergyman.

"Also the daughter of any priest, if she profanes herself by harlotry,
she profanes her father; she shall be burned with fire."

[Leviticus 21:9http://bible.cc/leviticus/21-9.htm]

"[if] the girl was not found a virgin [on her wedding night] then they
shall bring out the girl to the doorway of her father's house, and the
men of her city shall stone her to death"

[Deuteronomy 22:20-21http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/22-20.htm]

"they found a man gathering wood on the sabbath day ... Then the LORD
said to Moses, "The man shall surely be put to death; all the
congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.""

[Numbers 15:32-35http://bible.cc/numbers/15-32.htm]

(And of course this old chestnut:)

"If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman,
both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put
to death."

[Leviticus 20:13http://bible.cc/leviticus/20-13.htm]

Of course the Judaic (and Christian) scriptures are relatively
voluminous and this represents but a small sample of what could be
cited.  The 'certain circumstances' were fairly wide-ranging.

--
In childhood our credulity serves us well. It helps us to pack, with
extraordinary rapidity, our skulls full of the wisdom of our parents and
our ancestors. But if we don't grow out of it in the fullness of time,
our ... nature makes us a sitting target for astrologers, mediums,
gurus, evangelists, and quacks. We need to replace the automatic
credulity of childhood with the constructive skepticism of adult science.
[Richard Dawkins; Unweaving The Rainbow]

yes, Moses and the Israelites were under the old law ...

they had the ten commandments, and God dwelt among them ...

sin was purged out of the nation ... if you broke a commandment, you
were stoned ...

but the old law passed away when Christ died on the cross for
those sins ... remember when Mary Magdelene was brought
before Jesus to be stoned, He said that let him without sin
cast the first stone ... He was changing things ...

but the Catholic church I believe carries things too far when
they want to do away with the death penalty ...

remember the thieves on the cross with Jesus ... the one
on the right repented and Christ said today you shall be
with me in paradise, but he did not say alright, get this guy
down from here because he has repented ... notice when
the thief on the left did not repent, the one on the right said
before Christ forgave him that they were getting punished
because of their sins ...

so Christ did not excuse a thief from the death penalty
physically, but He did excuse him spiritually ...

so if capital punishment was wrong, why didn't Christ
stop it ... because He left it still as a determent in society
to stop evil ...

make sense you capital punishment critics?
.

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