Re: "Shanghai Stock Exchange" and OpenVMS

In article <ba9770e9-3ef4-4ff7-ad21-cbd65e08b25e@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
AEF <spamsink2001@xxxxxxxxx> writes:
On Jan 28, 11:44 am, billg...@xxxxxxxxxxx (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
In article <b9489278-4168-437b-85e5-fff095da5...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
AEF <spamsink2...@xxxxxxxxx> writes:



As I have said in the past, (and aparently at least Michael agrees) it's
all a matter of opinion as I find quite the opposite.
OK.

And the ones I have usually show several versions
of the same command with the differences specified in the name of the
command via different paths. You know: path1/cp, path2/cp, etc., where
path1 and path2 may be very similar in appearance. Which one is the
one I will be running if I just specify cp? (This is intuitive?)

It is to people who use Unix for a living. And, apparently college
freshman.
OK, it was late night when I've been posting these things. OK, it's
the one that's in the PATH. I'm just starting and for some reason I'm
just not in the Unix PATH frame of mind yet. (Maybe it's in part
because I hate the PATH trains!) But why the multiple versions of some
commands? Why the following?
SYNOPSIS
/usr/bin/ls [-aAbcCdeEfFghHilLmnopqrRstuvVx1@] [file]...
/usr/xpg4/bin/ls [-aAbcCdeEfFghHilLmnopqrRstuvVx1@]
[file]...
/usr/xpg6/bin/ls [-aAbcCdeEfFghHilLmnopqrRstuvVx1@]
[file]...
Why three versions?

My guess would be backwarsd compatability. We already determined you
use Solaris. If you knew anything at all about Sun you would knoe that
they have made major changes in their OS. SunOS was strictly BSD based
with a few SYSVisms provided. Then came Solaris. Totally SYSV. But,
Sun kept a number of BSDish utilities and commands around so as to not
break totally break scripts that people had already on their systems.
I have no idea what "xpg" is so I can't tell you what this particular
set does.


Someone at work showed me a website which reformmated the man pages
into something much easier to read. Can't be just me who finds the
original man pages visually difficult to read.
Also, I find English words much more intuitive and actually mostly, if
not partly, self explanatory.

Once again, matter of opinion. And really rather Anglo-centric, don't
you think? So, then, how useful was VMS in Germany or France?
How useful is the term "awk" in any language!

Yeahy, well 'awk" is kind of an exception. And given the stature of the
people involved, they should be allowed some idiosyncracies. The letters
in "awk" are the initials of its creators Aho, Weinberger & Kernighan.

At least VMS words are
somewhat self-evident in one language! In what language are cp, rm,
mkdir, awk, sed, mv and such just normal words?

With the exception of awk, as explained above, all of them. Or are you
one of those people who can't read vanity license plates either? Every
one of them is an abbreviation. Do you know what PA, MD, VA, DC, etc.
all mean? How about lb., oz., amp.? And just as further justification
for even "awk", just what exactly did the word "ohm" have to do with
resistance?

So by your criterion,
Unix isn't useful in any language!

As I have said earlier. The biggest problem with trying to explain
anything about Unix in this neighborhood is trying to get by the
anti-Unix bias. Thus my recent comment about a Babbage quote. But
then, Babbage didn't use VMS so maybe nobody here has ever seen the
quote I am refering to. :-)


I don't find that to be the case for 1-
and 2-letter commands and options. VMS commands and qualifiers and
keywords and such are mostly self-evident as to what they more or less
do or specify, aside from the fine details.

Nothing about computers is "self-evident". It's a business with its own
jargon and terminology. I mean, why do those doctors use words like
"apendicitis" and "carcinoma"? Why don't they just use English like
everyone else?
To keep us in the dark. You see, the doctors take a special course to
write illegibly and the pharmacists take the corresponding course to
decode it!

Ah yes, another urban legend. Actually, most doctors I know have much
better handwritting than I have and the reason ordinary people coldn't
read what the doctor wrote was because it was in Latin. I have no
problem reading doctors notes. especially as they move more and more
to english anyway.

Actually, there is a real need for such strange words as
normal English words simply don't suffice for all the numerous medical
terms needed. The same isn't true for CLI commands. We're not talking
organic chemistry or here.

No, we are talking inertia. If you truly feel that a new shell that uses
pure english words is needed, bey all means, feel free to write one. But
don't be too disappointed when it becomes about as popular as the X-windows
Window Manager that mimiced Windows98. :-)


VMS terms are like those in photography: What does the enlarger do? It
enlarges (the image)! What does the developer do? It develops film or
photographic paper. What does the focusing knob do? What does the stop
bath do? It stops the developer from developing. The fixer bath
"fixes" the film or print so that you can turn on the light without
destroying the image. And then there's the print washer and the print
dryer. Can you guess what they do?

And let's not forget the F-stop! :-) yeah, that's real self-evident.
Yep. Touche'.

Now suppose they were instead named
by Unix type abbreviations. You'd have no or little idea what any of
them are or do without looking them up.

And if I were a professional photographer, I would have done that in the
process of becoming a professional photographer. What's your point?
I'm not really sure. I think we've gotten to the point where none of
us actually know just what we're arguing over. In this instance I was
trying to show through photography what it's like in another context
to learn new terms if said terms are described in "English words" as
VMS is. As I said, not all photography terms are self-evident, and
some are only partly self-evident.

And to a practitioner of the art, Unix commands are also perfectly clear.


Now, admittedly, the existing
photographic terms aren't fully self-explanatory, but at least you get
a pretty good idea of what they do (well, to varying degrees). OK,
"lens" isn't self-explanatory at all; you have to learn that one! And
"focusing" may be a challenge for some.
Well, I'd think the photographic terms, as they currently exist, are
more intuitive, right?

Those of us who are not into photography would tend to disagree. :-)
I have a number of cameras. I used to develop my own pictures and
even used a lot of experimental high-speed film back inthe old days.
(I did a lot of sport photography.) But I have never been as interested
in it as, say, my brother. As a result, most of my cameras now languish
on the shelf while I do what photo taking I do with a $100 Kodak digital
I got on sale at the PX.
OK, whatever.
The file systems are another story. I haven't learned how you can have
different disks in the same single file system. As a user I suppose
that's fine, but in VMS the system manager can set up logical names to
reference directories so that the user (or even the programmer in many
cases) need not be concerned with what the underlying device is.
Being intuitive is not the end-all be-all. What can you do with the OS
is also important. Of course we _were_ discussing looking stuff up,
but you referred to "progress", which opens up a whole new can of
worms.

Yeah, Unix is still "progressing" and VMS is languishing in the a corner
somewhere waiting for HP to finally pull the plug on the life support
system.

Some things in Unix I find very cool, like using output of one program
as input for another. But VMS has some very cool things, too.
And, since you mentioned physics labs a few posts ago:
in these facilities one usually has a local primer
for newbies. Anyway one will need only a very small
subset of an OSs capabilities to do physics work.
It's only reasonable anywhere a user starts work to have a local
source of how to get started, be it a tutorial session; a newbie
manual, "local guide" (Latex style name), a primer, or whatever you
want to call it; or something else. And that's true more generally:

We used to do that, but found it unnecessary more than a decade ago.


Need specifics here. Do users not have to be given usernames and
passwords, for example?

Sure, but we certainly don't need a book to tell them what it is, :-)
Professor stands up ion the front of the first class and tell them.
Used to have to hand out little slips of paper, but usernames are
now intuitive and common across all campus comouting resources so it
got easier.

Users who have never used Unix before somehow
become instantly productive on day 1?

Pretty much. They use the resources on the system to learn what
they need to know. Anything special (like how to invoke the Prolog
compiler) is given to them by their professors. It's not like none
of them have ever seen a computer before.

I suppose these users could also
do brain surgery on day 1 without having gone through medical school.
Just look it up what you need with Google!

Yet another typically absurd comparison. That's like saying they can't
drive cars because they don't know how to program the on board computer.
Different things require different levels of knowledge. Being a simple
user requires very limited knowledge. By the time they are seniors, they
know how the kernel and the filesystem really work. They don't need that
knowledge to edit "hello.c".


When you start a job, someone shows you around, right? And show's you
the ropes, so to speak, right? And what you're expected to do, right?

Not anytime lately. I am a professional and when I am hired it is
expected that I will walk up to my desk and begin functioning right
away. That's what separates the professional from the intern.
Sorry, bad term: "the ropes". I meant that you are told which desk is
yours, what your phone number is, where to get your badge, what your
responsibilities are, what software is running on what, what your
usernames and passwords are, whom you report to, etc. I suppose you
show up on day 1 with this all telepathically absorbed or you Google
it.

Not the same level of knowledge as how to edit a file in Unix. At no
job I have ever had has someone ever sat me dowm and said, "Here is how
you log into the system." I have recently been given access to yet another
pair of systems. I received my Usernames and Passwords in separate emails.
And that was all. It is considered my responsibility to locate the systems
and log into them and, use them. I don't even know what kind of system
they are or what OS they are running. Because of my level of experience,
it is expected that I will be able to do my job.

Again, apologies for using the wrong term. I was thinking more
generally.

I have been doing this professionally for over 30 years. I have had
to learn new langauages, new OSes and new architectures. No one has
ever offered to hold my hand. I have been given tasks and, as a
That's what I should have said instead of "showing you the ropes"
which, come to think of it, isn't totally inappropriate. "The ropes",
besides just being given some tasks (which I would think would have to
include particulars of your new work environment that you almost
certainly wouldn't know ahead of time), could be a description of how
things work at your new workplace.

Places i have worked have, based on the claims on my resume, always
assumed I could be pointed at a desk and I would get to work. I have
never been asked, "Can you do X or should we give that task to someone
else?" I have been handed tasks involving programming languages I have
never used with the expectation that I will acquire the knowledge needed
to do the job. That is precisely how and why I learned Pascal.

When I started work at a particular
non-profit organization in the 90s, "customers" and employees had to
fill in forms and they had people type in this form data on a machine
similar to a keypunch, but it uploaded the data to an IBM machine, on
which we ran some secret commands dictated to me by a guy who looked
and talked like Elmer Fudd, then copied the massaged data to a 9-track
tape, loaded that tape on a tape drive hooked up to a pdp11/70 (of
which we had four for various purposes), which from there was
Permitted to a VAXcluster, which then ran through some third-party,
possibly home-grown app, and then finally something was printed on the
old green-bar paper which would never fold properly on its own. And
then there was the secret box buried God knows where in the cabs on
which you had to use some really strange incantation of commands and
various knob settings for different modes (all of which were cryptic)
to broadcast to the users that things were down and intentionally
write that the machine was expected to be up in an hour (we put down
an absolute time, not "1 hour"), when we in fact knew that it would be
several hours at best. So we had to update it every hour. I asked my
supervisor if we could just be honest about it say "sometime later
today" but he said no, we have to do it this way.
Now you are going to show up to work day 1 and somehow already know
all this?

Sorry, i diodn't see anything odd about that envirnment. :-) Actually,
if this was a real job, I would likely have left the interview with a
"Thank you, but no thank you."

You're going to waste "precious company time" trying to
learn this on your own? Are you going to pour through manuals we
didn't have (well, maybe we did)

You mean like VMS here, when I first started? There were manuals, but
not any place a regular user could get at them.

about an IBM OS from the distant past
with disk drives taller than most people just to figure out what the
three or four secret commands you need are instead of letting Elmer
Fudd simply tell you? You're going to find that secret, tiny box and
the correct keyboard (or whatever it was) on your own while employees
are left in the dark as to when the system will be back up. (Which, as
you just read, was the case anyway! But at least they got _some_
message.)

No, I'm not. Professionalism works both ways. I doubt very seriously
that place was paying enough to work for them in a hokey operation like
that.

It's things like this and which desk is yours and all that other stuff
above that I meant by "showing you the ropes". I didn't mean that you
become a Unix apprentice. I meant that you are shown the particulars
of your new work environment. Again, I apologize for having used the
misleading term.

When I started with Martin Marietta, they used PROFS on an IBM mainframe
for all their in-house communications. I was not asked if I knew how to
use MVS or PROFS. I was given an account and told, "This is what we use."
In 1979 I had my first formal programming education. It was COBOL on
VM-370 running DOS/E. I left the school on the Friday before Labor Day
weekend of 1979. I reported into my new job on the following Tuesday.
I was put to work doing COBOL and Fortran on a Univac-11 running Exec-8.
Trust me, there is no similarity between these two systems. :-) I was
not sent off to school. I was not given a batch of manuals. And, there
was no Web. I was expected to get myself up to speed and become productive.
The alternative would have been to be sent of to some other location which
might not have been as nice as this one was. When I first came here, to
the University, I came into the reation of a one man shop. There was
no one to "show me the ropes". If you have someone holding your hand
for the first couple weeks every place you have ever worked, you have
worked in places quite different from mine.

And when I take my next job, I expect they will have determined from the
interview that when I get there i will "hit the ground running". Otherwise,
why would they hire me?

bill

--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
billg999@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: "Shanghai Stock Exchange" and OpenVMS
    ... The VMS User's manual is. ... So Unix was a progress. ... and 2-letter commands and options. ... trying to show through photography what it's like in another context ...
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  • Re: "Shanghai Stock Exchange" and OpenVMS
    ... Sun kept a number of BSDish utilities and commands around so as to not ... So, then, how useful was VMS in Germany or France? ... trying to show through photography what it's like in another context ... never used with the expectation that I will acquire the knowledge needed ...
    (comp.os.vms)
  • Re: "Shanghai Stock Exchange" and OpenVMS
    ... The VMS User's manual is. ... So Unix was a progress. ... and 2-letter commands and options. ... trying to show through photography what it's like in another context ...
    (comp.os.vms)
  • Re: "Shanghai Stock Exchange" and OpenVMS
    ... VMS, its filesystem and its HELP less intuitive. ... So Unix was a progress. ... and 2-letter commands and options. ... The actual files may be on the one and only disk or on several different disks. ...
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  • Re: "Shanghai Stock Exchange" and OpenVMS
    ... The VMS User's manual is. ... So Unix was a progress. ... and 2-letter commands and options. ... trying to show through photography what it's like in another context ...
    (comp.os.vms)