Re: VAX software available for download

From: Bill Gunshannon (bill_at_cs.uofs.edu)
Date: 06/28/05 

Date: 28 Jun 2005 14:09:34 GMT

In article <d9rjjl$a0s$1@lnx107.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>,
        m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) writes:
> In article <3iass0FklopdU1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>>
>> Not in most cases. You have to accept whatever they offer or go
>> elsewhere. They have no requirement to accomodate your desires.
>
> maybe the US is located on another planet,
> but where I live I go into shop and can buy a car,
> either new or used, with no restrictions on its use
> and full rights to resell it.

Really? Over here you have to get the governments permission in the
form of a drivers license and a vehicle registration before you can
even drive it off the lot. The latter requires that you do business
with another business in the form of getting insurance. Unless, of
course, you are going to have it towed to your house and use it for
a planter! Everything in life has restrictions.

>
>>
>> It's called contract law. Two parties are free to negotiate
>> whatever they want.
>
> Not quite. I don't know the US situation but over here
> we have the concept of "immoral contracts".

We have the concept of illegal contracts as well, but you would have
a real hard time convincing a court that the VMS license is somehow
an illegal contract. Especially when you consider that there is no
reason why you had to enter into the contract in the first place unless
you wanted to.

> Don't know if I could translate that correctly,

Es ist mir egal. Ich spreche auch Deutsch.

> but an (admittedly exaggerated) example would be to hire a contract killer
> for some job and not paying him for his work. The contract is void
> from the very beginning, so he has zero chance to get his money, legally.
> (Of course being a professional, he will find ways to get his money, though :-)

Surely your not equating VMS Licensing with hiring a hitman!! :-)

> Or another, less exaggerated example: Surrogacy (? if some woman pays
> some other woman to be pregnant instead of herself) is probably
> allowed in the US, strictly forbidden over here. The contract,
> no matter if both agreed, is void.

But, like I said, you would have a hard time proving anything wrong
with the contract nature of the VMS License or pretty much any soft-
ware license, unless you know one that requires giving up your first-
born male shild for the software.

>
>> > it should be changed,
>>
>> Why? What would further government involvement accomplish?
>
> More consumer-friendly regulations.

Why more consumer friendly? The consumer is neither the owner or
the one who put the effort into developing the product. Why should
the consumer desires be held higher than the developer?

> The right to do with legally acquired products what I want,
> and not what the vendor wants.

You are free to negotiate such an agreement or choose another product.
But I see no reason why the producer should have to give up the fruits
of his labors under your terms rather than his. That is the surest way
I know of to completely stiffle innovation. Why work harder than the
next guy if he is going to get the reward for your effort?

>
>> The
>> problem seems to be that you think your way is the best and if the
>> law was changed it would change in your favor.
>
> And so it's in the producers favor.
> Depends on who has the stronger lobbyists.

Maybe, but doesn't change the fact that it is the labors of the producer
that resulted in the product in the first place. What does the consumer
bring to the table beyond a desire to have someone else's property?

>
>> There is nothing
>> I can see that supports this premise.
>
> Sure. Why should *your* way be the best ?
> I can see nothing that supports this premise.

I find that statement hard to believe. How would you feel if you and
one other person went out to dig a hole, you did all the work and the
other guy got paid? That's basicly what your asking for. You want
the producer to not be paid what he thinks is a fair wage for his
labors. If DEC were told up front that it would not be allowed to
profit from any software it wrote do you think VMS would even exist?

>
>
>> > IMHO. (OK, I'm aware IP lobbyists would fight
>> > that until the bitter end)
>>
>> So, should I take it you don't believe in IP?
>
> What makes you think so ?

The fact that you express the idea that individuals are not entitled to
the fruits of their labors.

> It's not allowed to replicate CDs (or PAKs for that matter) and to sell them,
> and it's not allowed to reverse-engineer some source code and sell it
> on my own (w/o permission). That should be enough protection.

Why? Why should you get to set the rules for the fruits of my labor?
I made it, I should get to decide what gets done with it. If you don't
agree with my rules, find another product or write it yourself (we are
talking software here). What you say, "I can't write an OS like VMS!"
That's the point entirely. If anyone could do it then it wouldn't have
the value it has. But anyone can't. It wa a monumental task and the
one(s) who put in the effort have earned the right to determine how
and under what terms their work is to be utilized. Anything else is
just envy and arrogance.

>
>> You believe that my time
>> and labor are not mine to do with as I choose?
>
> Again, what makes you think so ?

You said so. You claim that I do not have the right to set a price on
my labors. That I should be compelled to meet your desires rather than
my own.

> You create a product, I pay you for that,
> and as soon as it's out your door, it's mine,
> except that I must not replicate it.

What gives you the right to set the rules? It's mine. I made it. If
I didn't make it you wouldn't even have the option of buying it.

>
>> Without IP rights you
>> end out like the collapsed Russia.
>
> Oh plz, not this one ! Open Source == communism, plz, leave me alone
> with this stuff !

I didn't say that. I am totally in favor of Open Source. But not
forced Open Source. Again, if the producer wants to put his work
out there for the public that's fine. He is getting what he wanted
for his labors. But no one else should have the ability to force
another's labors into the Open Source world. The producer, by the
act of creating his work, has earned the right to determine when,
where, and how it will be used. No one else.

> The soviet union crashed for a lot of reasons, but certainly
> not due to IP disregard. Plz.

There was no "property" in the Soviet Union. There was no reward for
excellence. There was no reward for anything beyond the mediocre. The
result, after a few generations, was no innovation, no work beyond the
bare minimum required and the eventual colapse as they could no longer
compete with a world that was striving for excellence. The result was
inevitable.

>
>>
>> That's strictly a contract matter.
>
> See above, not if contract law disallowed vendor restrictions.

But there are no grounds, beyond some people's envy and arrogance
to do that. If you don't think a program is worth the cost (in both
money and license terms) don't buy it. Write your own and compete.

bill 

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>

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