Re: Is FreeBSD ready for desktop (Mozilla Flash)

From: Conrad (nospam_at_nowhere.com)
Date: 09/09/05 

Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2005 00:59:38 GMT

On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 00:21:58 +0000, Steve Ackman wrote:

> In <pan.2005.09.08.12.02.23.144714@nowhere.com>, Conrad wrote:
>
>> OK, here's a simple run-through of doing somthing totally weird,
>> something totally outrageous, something so far out there that
>> only maybe 2 or 3 really superior humans in the world have ever
>> even attempted - let alone succeeded - getting Flash to work with
>> Mozilla - or Firefox... or anything.
>
> Works fine here.
> $ uname -a
> FreeBSD wizard.dyndns.org 5.4-RELEASE FreeBSD 5.4-RELEASE #1: Wed Jul 27
> 17:06:49 MDT 2005 root*wizard.dyndns.org:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/CYRIXIII
> i386
>

 uname -a
FreeBSD bigmama.nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.com 5.4-RELEASE FreeBSD 5.4-RELEASE #0:
Sun May 8 10:21:06 UTC 2005
root@harlow.cse.buffalo.edu:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC i386

I am truly happy for you. But the question still begs -
whose anecdote comprises data? It works on yours, it
doesn't work on mine...

>> Next, having finally gotten an X desktop, I fire up Mozilla.
>> More bad news. The first site I hit tells me I have no Flash
>> support. OK, OK, in spite of the fact that when I installed
>> BSD I asked for a fairly complete X desktop, Flash is just too
>> new, too wild, too far out there to consider for inclusion.
>
> works fine here on Firefox 1.0.6_4,1.
> (about:plugins)
> File name: libflashplayer.so
> Shockwave Flash 6.0 r79
>
> Test with
> http://download.games.yahoo.com/games/web_games/iwin/jqflash/jewel_quest.html
> Strangely enough, this game doesn't work on Linux
> Flash 7... and it runs perceptibly slower under
> FreeBSD than it did under Linux.
>

This game doesn't work under Linux Flash 7 - or it runs
faster "under Linux"? Steve, already we're losing semantic
content that might actually be helpful to some poor schmuck.

> (about:plugins)
> File name: libjavaplugin_oji.so
> Java(TM) Plug-in 1.4.2
>
> runs Cubis Gold, found at
> http://games.yahoo.com/games/downloads/cb.html just
> fine. Yes, Java is a bit of a pain because you have
> to go to the Sun site, register, manually download
> several tarballs, and follow directions. I seem to
> recall I got it all done in an evening in between
> doing other things.
>
>> But that's OK - because I don't have a /etc/libmap.conf anyway.
>> so even if the port had built, I probably wouldn't have been
>> able to "Follow the instructions displayed by the port"
>
> No, /etc/libmap.conf doesn't exist until you follow
> the instructions given by the port and create it.
> Well, actually the instructions say to "add <stuff>
> to your /etc/libmap.conf." It's kind of axiomatic
> that if you don't have such a file, you have to create
> it.
>

Umm yea, Steve, as dim as I am, I managed to figure that
out - do you know how many samples of that file are out
there on the WWW that contain varying content, out-of-date
lib versions, etc.? I don't, and I stopped counting at "a bunch".
Again, why should it have to be a freaking googlefest to
get something that's fairly mainstream working?

 
>> A modest suggestion, folks. Drop the desktop support. Just
>> get rid of it. It's clearly beyond your scope, which is
>> apparently devoted to niche server markets.
>
> My desktop works just fine.
>

In the strictest sense, so does mine. I care mostly about
python and C development, and those tools work. But I would
NEVER claim that my needs are anywhere near what would
constitute "average" desktop use. I don't mind the VESA driver,
as long as my arthritic fingers can't outtype my editor, I'm
happy - but failure to detect a fairly standard Via chipset
(something that Linux DID do) and load the correct driver,
when both Linux and FreeBSD are using Xorg code makes me wonder
what the difference is. Unfortunately, I have to share my
machine with other users in my home, who may have slightly
more demanding video requirements, and given that, actually,
my desktop doesn't work fine. Again, kudos to you on your
brilliance and/or luck, but we're just swapping anectdotes.

>> In the face of such sterling server performance, it is
>> altogether too tempting to use FreeBSD on the desktop. The
>> headlines are grabbed by the question "Is Linux ready for
>> the desktop?" I propose another question "Does FreeBSD
>> know the desktop exists?"
>
> I've been using Linux for 8 years, FBSD since June.
> The transition required a bit of reading, but all in
> all, the FreeBSD desktop has filled my needs nicely.
>
>

Reading my other posts, I don't recall saying that I'm
struggling with the transition to FreeBSD. Here's what's
blowing my mind - until I got bitten by a stray lightning
bolt, I had this stuff working under the 4.x BSD - and I
don't recall it being this much of a problem. This included
such non-generic desktop items as dual monitors, a serial
wacom pad, a weird scanner. I've used FreeBSD since the
3.x series - what's irritating me is - isn't it supposed
to get BETTER? My personal history includes being dragged
kicking and screaming from a pure Windows background to
Solaris - and learning to love it. From Solaris I went
straight to FreeBSD - Linux came into my world later. Again,
FreeBSD fills MY needs on the desktop, but the current
implementation kind of blows when it comes to doing some
pretty generic desktop stuff.

 
>> But if FreeBSD is to provide desktop functionality, then
>> some attempt must be made to recognize at a minimum, what
>> should work on a desktop.
>
> What should work on a desktop is X with a Window
> Manager. That's it. Everything else should rightly
> be at the user's option.
>

There. That's it. That completely sums up my problem with
saying FreeBSD is an adequate desktop environment.
I do things with X - but I'm a developer. Those things are
called applications. A desktop that consists of only X and
a window manager is NOT a desktop environment. Getting
all exited because we managed to get an X cursor and
FVWM running just doesn't hack what an average user calls
a desktop environment. Honest.

> That said, the one thing I still haven't
> figured out is the Super TV Tuner.
>
> $ xawtv
> This is xawtv-3.94, running on FreeBSD/i386 (5.4-RELEASE)
> no video grabber device available
>
>> When the most popular browser
>> on the planet (barring M$ Internet Exploiter) can't be made
>> to "just work" with the most popular plugins on the planet,
>> then, in my modest opinion, something is really, really,
>> wrong.
>
> Well, you do have to read a man or handbook page or
> two, but yeah, after that, it basically "just worked."
>

I'm pretty sure I cited the applicable FreeBSD handbook entry
Section II (Common Tasks), Chapter 6 (Desktop Applications),
page 6.2 (Browsers). Please re-read my original post. In an
effort to follow the most authoritative documentation available,
I did something weird - I did what the handbook said to do,
and it broke. What part of that is acceptable?

>> In the meantime, I can develop, say wxPython applications -
>> but I still can't hit a website with Flash content.
>
> Can't? I doubt it.
>
> I don't recall the exact steps I took, but it was
> basically just a 'make install' or two, and creation
> of the libmap.conf so I could follow the instructions
> given by the port.

Again Steve, I must maintain that to claim to be a desktop
O/S, and not merely a niche server O/S, that there is a
level of "just works" expectation that extends beyond, "oooh
goody, I got an x cursor and a window manager". It is not
acceptable in 2005 that we say, "yep, it's a desktop O/S",
but then find that a)generic monitors aren't recognized on
install, something that another free and open O/S manages to
do, b) requires that some pretty fundamental things be installed
by hand (yeah, sorry but browsers with a certain degree of
functionality are pretty much de rigeur for desktops these days)
and c) breaks on installing packages that are both common,
and allegedly supported.

Further, saying Nyah-nyah-nyah, "mine works and yours doesn't"
only serves to put a spotlight on the problem, which I believe
is a core attitude of "I dodged the bullet and got something
running that you couldn't - I win." Given that mentality,
FreeBSD will continue to be a jewel in the mud - and the shame
is, it could be a jewel in a platinum setting.

Conrad

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