Re: The 6.3. FreeBSD Install sucks a lot

Begin <fpe6dh$l16$2@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 09:10:09 +0000 (UTC),
Michel Talon <talon@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I think everybody agrees that the FreeBSD installer, the ports system,
etc. require a complete redesign.

I don't know that, actually. There are definately things that could
stand improvement. From memory, like the default yellow on blue that
isn't all that easy to read and is worse on Xterms. The logic of key
inputs is a bit of a nuisance too. Some of the menu logic is frankly a
bit cracked. But whether fixing those and adding a few wishes here and
there requires a complete redesign, I don't know.

With a bit of experience it isn't all that difficult to make it install
a base system inside of 10 minutes, reboot, and have a running system.
A system without packages, perhaps, but with all the usual tools to get
started. At that point it's easy to bypass all the inherent limitations
of trying to do things to a system that might or might not be bootable.

The installer, in that respect, does what an installer is expected
to do, even if inefficiently in extreme cases. It allows me choices
even if some choices aren't good ideas and/or could stand improvement.
Personally, I've had to use worse, much worse.

Similarly, the ports system, while certainly not perfect, has a certain
elegance to it. It also is not that difficult to teach it new tricks. So
I don't really see the need for a full replacement.


Of course, everything here is interdependent, for exemple designing a
good upgrade mechanism for the ports system, correctly dealing with
dependencies, gives a building block for a ports installing system in
the installer.

You're confusing correctly with efficiently here. Besides, if you
are installing a new system, there is no point in worrying about
dependencies of already installed packages.

Thinking about what I wrote last night a bit more, the logic of coming
up with a reasonable partitioning and ordering thing probably isn't NP
hard, but it does require caching the entire dependency tree and laying
out the CDs previously for it. This as opposed to laying them out for,
say, maximum fit.

I'll admit that the apparent currenct practice of walking down the list
alphabetically is pretty pessimal for some selections. OTOH, coming up
with something that'll fetch the dependency tree to cache and takes a
stab at laying it out halfway usably might easily be added as another
ports make target.

On another note, one might venture to just force-install everything
without regards to whether dependencies are already installed, then fix
up the dependency database once everything is done, hoping no dependency
will turn out to have failed somehow. The risk there is that stopping
halfway for any reason is likely to present a system with lots of things
installed, none working.


I note that I have moved to wanting to come up with a running system
and only then worry about installing packages on other systems as well,
as I've found that wanting to also install massive amounts of packages
tends to put enough pressure on installers as to make many unstable.
FreeBSD's installer, in that respect, allows much easier choice than
many more ``modern'' ones.

The last time I installed a debian or redhat system it took more time
to deselect lots of the preselected things I never wanted in the first
place than to bring up a minimal FreeBSD system including partitioning
and rebooting. Fancy graphics and self-congratulatory advertisements in
apparent emulation of certain other systems notwithstanding.


Also there is a strong and vocal cast of self proclaimed power users
who only swear by the tools they know, and find great satisfaction in
the fact that their shortcomings repel "morons" towards Linux.

*cough* This is different from COLA crowds and rabid windows users, how?
Not to mention apple interface acolytes, and other people liking *their*
system above all others.

Nevermind the opposite, of people vocally demanding change but for some
reason or another failing to convince others of their convictions.


I think that if you want to change things over, and moreover, come up
with a better tool, it would need to actually be better in a way that
caters to its users. FreeBSD, as oftentimes observed, caters to people
that are at least somewhat knowledgeable. If that happens to leave out
people who don't know how to take care of themselves it might very well
mean the target audience plainly does not care. It also means that if
your solution or improvement is not an actual improvement for that
crowd, then it does not care about that, either.


--
j p d (at) d s b (dot) t u d e l f t (dot) n l .
This message was originally posted on Usenet in plain text.
Any other representation, additions, or changes do not have my
consent and may be a violation of international copyright law.
.

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