Re: Why there isn't an ISO: a very bad state of mind

From: GP (gilpel_at_inverse.nretla.org)
Date: 11/08/03

  • Next message: Christian Weisgerber: "Re: More than 4 IDE disks?" 
    Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2003 15:30:19 -0500

    Marc Espie wrote:

    > Have you ever really looked at OpenBSD documentation ? we've got a lot
    > of generic manpages that show how to set up a lot of stuff in simple
    > terms, whenever possible. Between afterboot(8), vpn(8), ssl(8) and a
    > few others.

    Ho! So you have installation instructions in the man pages. If this is
    how things work, maybe you should have a list of man pages in the
    order in which they should be read.

    > So, if you have good ideas about this, how about starting working on it ?
    > Write actual documentation, send patches, etc.

    I am indeed planning to write some very basic information for a
    user-friendly distro, which doesn't mean a "for dummies" distro. It
    would be for people who can read solid instructions, if you wish.

    But my experience is mainly with Slackware and my feeling is
    Volkerding doesn't give much of a damn anymore: there are too many
    things to fix -- this cd-rw problem I was talking about is but one
    exemple -- scripts exit without an error message, no discussion group
      onsite and alt.os.linux.slackware having turned into a mess loooong
    ago (see my message to Null), outdated documentation both onsite and
    on the market, etc. In a word, nobody coming from Windows will like
    Slackware.

    So, I'm taking a look around and one of the options was OBSD. When you
    guys don't provide ISOs or any instructions on installation save using
    ftp, to me this is a wrong attitude. And that's only the very first step.

    When companies put a product on the market -- a car, a cellphone or
    even a movie -- they have people which are not specialists use it
    beforehand and many adjustments are made at this stage. Your man pages
    seem OK, but not for a newbie.

    MAKE THIS TEST. Ask a few persons who have never used Linux or another
    BSD before, to log on to your site, and see if how they manage to get
    up and running. Do not provide any other instructions and see how long
    they take, wonder if anybody having a regular job and a family to take
    care of would spend that much timea installing an OS. In its present
    state, though not everything si wrong about it, OBSD documentation
    would fail miserably.

    At first, people don't want to learn all the inner workings behind the
    scene. They want to get something working. Final. They want something
    like the instructions I got from Bas Keur. Then, they might have a
    need of options other than those used for wget in this instance and,
    since they have learned about wget because they USED! USED! USED! it,
    and if they've been told about man pages, they will check for some
    other options. That's the way people learn: using things, not reading
    man pages and faqs before anything works.

    And if, while installing, a problem might happen with such a
    controller or video card, don't clutter the basic instructions with
    all those apartés. Make a page called Problems and link to anchors
    from the main page. Then, make another page called More for people who
    want to know more.

    Some people say that OBSD is not for this kind of beginners. The
    problem with this conception of not starting at the very beginning is
    that sooner or later, there will be "holes" in the documentation and
    there are "splits" all over the place to explain how this and that
    really works. And, of course, most of the time, there are even more
    holes in those splits.

    Also, and this is one problem I face, if people get experience on
    Linux, they've sweated a lot to learn those basics and then they not
    very keen on learning other names for interfaces, utilities, etc. Only
    a fringe of the fringe OS that Linux is will move on to OBSD. So, you
    better make sure they get to it from the start.

    So, the reason I won't be working on BSD stuff instead of Debian's or
    some other Linux distro is that I feel there is less undertanding here
    of what needs to be done. What I'm doing now is pleading for the most
    basic marketing rules and what I get for my efforts is people saying
    I'm trolling.

    At the present time, I get next to no paradoxal sleep. I get awaken
    each night after 4 to 5 hours of sleep and I get no sound sleep
    thereafter. So I don't feel like fighting the people I'd be supposed
    to work with in order to get my point through. I don't want to explain
    at lenght why marketing -- considering the "client" POV -- is
    necessary even with open source.

    Add to this that I have some reticences concerning the BSD license,
    that, as I already said, I'm more used to Linux, and you should
    understand I won't invest any energies into learning OBSD.

    But from the hours I've invested here so far, you should gather that
    before you can get anybody to help you write good doc, you should at
    least provide well in sight on your site, either links to an ISO or to
    instructions on how to create one, so that people can install and
    reinstall wherever they want without having to d/l every time. Then,
    unify all instructions on how to install OBSD from there.

    I believe this is all I've got to say on the matter. Good luck!

    GP

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  • Next message: Christian Weisgerber: "Re: More than 4 IDE disks?"

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