Re: Question: login in system

From: Brian K. White (brian_at_aljex.com)
Date: 06/15/05 

Date: 15 Jun 2005 13:08:26 -0400

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Lawrence" <foo@pcunix.com>
Newsgroups: comp.unix.sco.misc
To: <distro@jpr.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 5:47 AM
Subject: Re: Question: login in system

> Brian K. White wrote:
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Tony Lawrence" <foo@pcunix.com>
>> Newsgroups: comp.unix.sco.misc
>> To: <distro@jpr.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 5:31 PM
>> Subject: Re: Question: login in system
>>
>>
>>
>>>There's nothing inherently wrong with top posting. It's simply a
>>>cultural thing; if we had started out doing it this way, people would
>>>object to bottom posters.
>>>
>>>That's not to denigrate cultural customs, of course. When in Rome, etc.
>>>
>>>Brian K. White wrote:
>>>
>>>>This is top-posting.
>>>>It's about like writing your thesis in crayon.
>>>>The only reason everyone does it because Microsoft issued only crayons
>>>>to a bezillion people all at once and it was the first writing
>>>>instrument most of them ever used and so they all use them and don't
>>>>realize that crayons are a really stupid way to try to write a document.
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>Brian K. White -- brian@aljex.com -- http://www.aljex.com/bkw/
>>>>+++++[>+++[>+++++>+++++++<<-]<-]>>+.>.+++++.+++++++.-.[>+<---]>++.
>>>>filePro BBx Linux SCO Prosper/FACTS AutoCAD #callahans Satriani
>>>>
>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>From: "BB...@gmail.com" <brent.bolin@gmail.com>
>>>>Newsgroups: comp.unix.sco.misc
>>>>To: <distro@jpr.com>
>>>>Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 10:26 AM
>>>>Subject: Re: Question: login in system
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Top
>>>>>Would this be considered middle posting ?
>>>>>Bottom
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>Tony Lawrence
>>>Unix/Linux/Mac OS X resources: http://aplawrence.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> There is an inherent wrongness as long as our context is written
>> languages that read from the top-down, which is what, all of them? It
>> wouldn't be unfair even if we limited it to English since that is what
>> every post to this newsgroup is written in.
>>
>> Find a language whose written form starts at the bottom and proceeds
>> upwards, and then find an email client for that laguage that
>> correspondingly opens emails with the focus at the bottom at first, and
>> then make it the most common language in use on the internet, or in this
>> newsgroup, and then you have a point.
>>
>> Until then, top-down chronology is not an arbitrary arrangement no better
>> than any other.
>> It is empirically observably the most intuitive and most naturally
>> readable with the least requirement of conscious deciphering.
>>
>> I will say this much though, if everyone always top-posted then that
>> would at least be better than some doing it one way and some another.
>> The bottom is undeniably the right place for replies,
>> but this post would undeniably be more readable if I had continued the
>> established top-posting pattern.
>>
>> The only thing worse than a poor standard is no standard.
>>
>> Brian K. White -- brian@aljex.com -- http://www.aljex.com/bkw/
>> +++++[>+++[>+++++>+++++++<<-]<-]>>+.>.+++++.+++++++.-.[>+<---]>++.
>> filePro BBx Linux SCO Prosper/FACTS AutoCAD #callahans Satriani
>>
>
>
> The argument in favor of top posting is that the new material is
> immediately visible, and the older, reference material follows below,
> where you don't have to look at it if you don't care.
>
> Some people find our Usenet style confusing - it's why you'll see people
> at message boards saying that they hate Usenet. The same people get
> confused if you reply to them "in-line" in email. I've had customers
> write back asking why I didn't answer their questions. Of course I did,
> but it was in-line and they get confused. I make a mental note to always
> top-post when replying to them, and to use bookish quoting:
>
> You asked "what is blah blah". Blah blah is..
>
> I think part of that is mechanical reading skill. Poor readers don't
> automatically go into high speed browse mode for lines beginning with
> ">" - maybe they don't even have a high speed browse mode. So they can't
> effortlessly pick out the lines that don't have leading ">" (and batten
> the hatches if they have to put up with it and someone changes the quote
> character - oh my!).
>
> It's hard for them to tell what's going on - bottom posting is probably
> easier for them than in-line, but even bottom posting is hard because they
> have to look very carefully to see where the new text starts. People with
> poor reading skills are the ones most likely to tell you that they
> "haven't figured out this computer stuff yet".
>
> There is also a relationship between poor reading, poor spelling and
> dislike of Unix command lines. Poor typing skills don't seem to matter
> (plenty of one finger Unix typists around) but poor readers don't like
> text interfaces and poor spellers sure don't like command lines.
>
> But - all that aside - top posting is just a cultural thing. It's nothing
> to do with written language flow, it does have advantages, but "we" don't
> like it. And because this is what the majority is used to and expects,
> visitors should follow the convention or risk anger.

I can see all that.
I mostly am thinking the points are all valid and so I accept it really is
mostly just a cultural choice between a few methods that have
equivalent balances of technical merit.

But the stuff about the unskilled readers I'm not sure I agree with.
I agree there are unskilled readers or electronic forum users,
but I'm not sure it does more good than harm to cater to them.
Why is it better for me to decipher their messages that have no
deliberate format, than for them to decipher mine that has a consciously
designed format? Just because I _can_ successfuly read even a chaotic
message (think in-line quoting with no quoting indicators, not even spacing
or extra blank lines between paragraphs from diferent authors. I see it
occasionally, so I assume you have at least once) and they
can't read one that does follow a pattern they just don't like?
I know life isn't fair and all but I still have a problem with that.

Also if it's true that the unskilled readers mostly find top-posting the
easiest
format to decipher, then _that_ may be empiricaly observed data
blowing my theory about what is the most intuitive format if you subtract
all culture and leave only experience with the English language, maybe
some ordinary written (paper) correspondance, and no prior experience
with anything like email.

I don't think that is true but I haven't done a scientific study.
I haven't run into anyone who actually failed to read an email
from me because of it's formatting. Some have failed to grasp the
message but only because of the same reasons they would have
in a verbal conversation. And I do interact with custmers' simpler
office staff type users, and from vendors the sales people
are almost uniformely hopeless and tech support is 50/50.
I think in every case when I received a godawful mail and replied to it,
whether
I refomatted the whole mail or left it and added my own bit at the end,
we probably both sucessfully read the format we dont' like, and shake
our heads at how backwards the other guy is.

Brian K. White -- brian@aljex.com -- http://www.aljex.com/bkw/
+++++[>+++[>+++++>+++++++<<-]<-]>>+.>.+++++.+++++++.-.[>+<---]>++.
filePro BBx Linux SCO Prosper/FACTS AutoCAD #callahans Satriani

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Question: login in system
    ... > Newsgroups: comp.unix.sco.misc ... Poor readers don't ... > But the stuff about the unskilled readers I'm not sure I agree with. ... > blowing my theory about what is the most intuitive format if you subtract ...
    (comp.unix.sco.misc)
  • Re: Question: login in system
    ... > this newsgroup is written in. ... > Find a language whose written form starts at the bottom and proceeds ... > The only thing worse than a poor standard is no standard. ... The argument in favor of top posting is that the new material is ...
    (comp.unix.sco.misc)
  • Re: Scotland is the least successful country in western Europe.
    ... The nation has come bottom in the Federation of Small Businesses' ... Scotland's poor health performance is the main drag on improving ... "lags the most" - including housing, education and physical and mental ... Looking at the individual components of the report, ...
    (soc.culture.scottish)
  • Re: Scotland is the least successful country in western Europe.
    ... The nation has come bottom in the Federation of Small Businesses' ... Scotland's poor health performance is the main drag on improving ... "lags the most" - including housing, education and physical and mental ... Looking at the individual components of the report, ...
    (soc.culture.scottish)
  • Scotland is the least successful country in western Europe.
    ... Scotland is the least successful country in western Europe, ... The nation has come bottom in the Federation of Small Businesses' ... Scotland's poor health performance is the main drag on improving ... Looking at the individual components of the report, ...
    (soc.culture.scottish)
Loading